Author Topic: Dealer error and procedure to correct  (Read 7979 times)

Buddymax

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Dealer error and procedure to correct
« on: February 13, 2014, 05:49:58 PM »
I need to provide a review of the action before I ask the qeustion so you know where I am coming from.
Button is in seat 9 of 9
Dealer dealt all down cards.  Bets placed and called
Dealer dealt the flop, Seat 1 checked, seat 7 bet, seat 8 and seat 9 called.
Dealer forgot about seat 1 and did not wait for seat 1 to state action and dealt the burn card and exposed the turn card as seat 1 was raising. All players in the hand saw the exposed turn card
Question - What do do?   - Is seat 1 raise action binding or can he call it back?
As TD I enforced the raise as binding, the turn card as legitimate and all other players folded.
One player not in the hand objected and stated that the turn card should have been re-shuffled into the deck, the players in seat 7,8, and 9 have an option to call the raise or fold, and then a new turn card exposed.

I reviewed the TDA rules and can find nothing that speaks to this situation.  Can anyone help?


Nick C

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Re: Dealer error and procedure to correct
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 08:10:10 PM »
Buddymax,

 First of all I'd like to welcome you to the Forum. Similar questions have been kicked around on other posts, and there are conflicting responses from many. The way I see it, because there was substantial action, some will want to rule the seat 1 player's hand dead. I do not agree. Based on your description, to allow the seat 1 player's raise, I would have announced that the exposed turn card can not play. I would have replaced the exposed turn card with the "proper" river card and reshuffled the exposed turn if a river card were needed.

 I realize that some circumstances are tough to describe exactly the way they occurred. My guess is, you obviously felt that the 1 seat player was acting without seeing the premature turn. I believe that no player should be allowed the right to act after knowing the identity of the next card. I don't like killing the hand, but I can not justify allowing the pre-mature turn to play.

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error and procedure to correct
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2014, 10:19:42 PM »
I don't see anything unusual about this situation. Clearly, the action on the flop was not complete, and the exposed turn card cannot play. Under the facts given, I would say that the raise is binding.

I cut & paste from one of my earlier posts, the generally accepted methods of dealing with prematurely dealt board cards:

Quote

The dealer burns and turns the flop cards (or the turn or river card) before the previous rounds betting is complete.

Premature flop:  Complete action, leave existing burn, flop cards get shuffled back into deck, cut, deal new flop without burning.  Continue as normal.

Premature turn:  Complete action, leave existing burns (2), burn and turn new card (what would have been river) in place of existing turn.  Continue action. Old turn card gets shuffled back into deck, cut, deal river without burning.

Premature river:  Complete action, leave existing burns (3), river card gets shuffled back into deck, cut, deal new river without burning.


Nick C

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Re: Dealer error and procedure to correct
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2014, 06:49:16 AM »
Ken,

 Based on your reply, it appears that you agree with what I wrote, correct?

K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error and procedure to correct
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 09:44:39 AM »
Yes!  :D

Buddymax

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Re: Dealer error and procedure to correct
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 10:55:48 AM »
Thank you for your quick replies.  From the responses the only thing that I did wrong was to allow the exposed turn card to continue. 
In other words the correct action would be:
The raise is binding, The exposed turn card reshuffled into the deck, the remaining players allowed to either call or fold to the raise, and if any further action, a new turn card exposed (without a new burn card) and then play to continue as normal.  Am I right on this?


K-Lo

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Re: Dealer error and procedure to correct
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2014, 12:29:29 PM »
Hi Buddy:

There was some support, historically, for the method that you describe (I.e. Reshuffling the exposed turn card back into the deck right away), and there are indeed some merits to that approach, but it is not (at least currently) the "standard" approach.  The approach that is generally used today is to deal what would have been the proper river card as the new turn card after the flop action is duly completed. This preserves 4/5ths of the original board. The exposed turn card would only then be reshuffled into the deck if it is necessary to deal a river card.

If I were to break down the procedure step by step (forgive me if you do not require this level of detail):

1. Announce to the table that the turn card was dealt prematurely and will not play. Remove the exposed turn card from the board (usually keep it face up) and set it aside (e.g. close to dealer to the right of where his chip tray would be).

2. Direct action on the flop betting round to continue. In your example, you would have the player complete his raise.  Note that if everyone  then folds, you won't have to do anything so it's unnecessary to go into too much detail with what is going to happen on later streets at this point.

3. With action complete, announce to the table that you will now be dealing the proper river card in place of the turn. Direct your dealer to burn a card (now there will already be 3 burn cards) and deal the new turn card (what would have been the river).

4. Direct action on the turn betting round to continue.  Some TDs will keep the exposed card still out, but I prefer to put it on the top of the deck at this point. This allows the card to be protected and you won't mistakenly forget to shuffle it back into the deck if you need to. No need to reshuffle yet though, since if one player bets and everyone folds on the turn, the situation is resolved.

5. With action complete, announce to the table that you will now reshuffle the exposed card back into the deck, so that it has a chance of reappearing on the river. Direct your dealer to shuffle the cards (including the exposed one). Be careful not to expose the cards when squaring the deck (a common error since dealers will square up cards facing the players as they would at the beginning of a deal out of habit). Announce to the table that the dealer will cut the cards and then deal the river WITHOUT BURNING, and then direct your dealer to do this. Action on the final betting round continues.

Note that some venues and rule sets favor burning a fourth card before dealing the river, but this practice has not been widely adopted. Thus, I believe it is best that you tell the players what is going to happen just before you do it as I've noted above, to avoid any misunderstandings.

I hope this is helpful.

K

Buddymax

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Re: Dealer error and procedure to correct
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2014, 12:48:21 PM »
Hi K.

Thank you for your reply and I appreciate the detail.  Your answer clarifies play that is fair to everyone.  I will pass this along to the player to objected.  It seems that he was right and should be ack=nowledged.  He does deal for us from time to time at our tourneys.
Buddy

Tristan

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Re: Dealer error and procedure to correct
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 10:44:53 AM »
1. Announce to the table that the turn card was dealt prematurely and will not play. Remove the exposed turn card from the board (usually keep it face up) and set it aside (e.g. close to dealer to the right of where his chip tray would be).

2. Direct action on the flop betting round to continue. In your example, you would have the player complete his raise.  Note that if everyone  then folds, you won't have to do anything so it's unnecessary to go into too much detail with what is going to happen on later streets at this point.

3. With action complete, announce to the table that you will now be dealing the proper river card in place of the turn. Direct your dealer to burn a card (now there will already be 3 burn cards) and deal the new turn card (what would have been the river).

4. Direct action on the turn betting round to continue.  Some TDs will keep the exposed card still out, but I prefer to put it on the top of the deck at this point. This allows the card to be protected and you won't mistakenly forget to shuffle it back into the deck if you need to. No need to reshuffle yet though, since if one player bets and everyone folds on the turn, the situation is resolved.

5. With action complete, announce to the table that you will now reshuffle the exposed card back into the deck, so that it has a chance of reappearing on the river. Direct your dealer to shuffle the cards (including the exposed one). Be careful not to expose the cards when squaring the deck (a common error since dealers will square up cards facing the players as they would at the beginning of a deal out of habit). Announce to the table that the dealer will cut the cards and then deal the river WITHOUT BURNING, and then direct your dealer to do this. Action on the final betting round continues.

Note that some venues and rule sets favor burning a fourth card before dealing the river, but this practice has not been widely adopted. Thus, I believe it is best that you tell the players what is going to happen just before you do it as I've noted above, to avoid any misunderstandings.

+1

For the record, I agree with what you said too Nick!  Although I'm not sure that any of us would rule Seat 1's hand dead.  He was the last to act and skipped by the dealer.  If action proceeded past Seat 1 (if they were not last to act) and then the turn came out without Seat 1 stopping the action, then some of us would.
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: Dealer error and procedure to correct
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2014, 12:17:15 PM »
It's always good when we agree :)

Spence

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Re: Dealer error and procedure to correct
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015, 06:04:26 AM »
I love to reopen threads... 
Did we not at some point argue about whether the dealer counts as an action?  For the purposes of substantial action I thought we had the understanding that the dealer just prior to dealing the next street taps the table and announces the number of players in the hand.  that indication is to allow for a player to speak up if their action was missed. 
In the circumstance above the only action that was missed was Player 1 and the dealer immediately dealt.  We all agree that this is a premature card and not Player 1's fault.  I'm thinking of this more as a player who was not in for all bets, at least one other action from a player at the table and then the dealer dealing the next street.  Rather than saying there was ample time we use number of actions.
Should the dealing of another street count as an action?