Author Topic: SB weird action  (Read 2340 times)

drneau

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SB weird action
« on: February 27, 2010, 06:06:10 AM »
Both blinds are posted correctly.

Fold to the small blind.

With action on him, small blind reaches out and pushes out his blind a bit further (keeping his cards near him).

What are his options now?

a) Fold
b) Fold or call
c) Fold, call or raise

Background: Some are arguing that his movement was "a movement to the pot", but many others are arguing that it wasn't

Stuart Murray

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Re: SB weird action
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2010, 07:18:28 AM »
I don't really think there is anything we can do about this other than warn/penalise him about his conduct. Ive checked Robert's rules and can't find mention of making a movement towards the pot (although I do think it's in there somewhere!)

He has not made a forward motion with his cards so therefore has not given up claim to the pot.  My verdict - full actions availabe to him and I'd speak to him after the hand about the forward motion of his small blind.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
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South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

chet

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Re: SB weird action
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2010, 10:53:04 AM »
I tend to agree with Stuart.  In fact, I am of the opinion that the minimal forward movement of the original chips in the SMALL Blind is meaningless.  The player has done nothing to indicate he/she is intending any particular action.   

1.  No additional chips have been moved toward the pot as would be needed for a call or raise.
2.  There was no movement of his/her cards toward the muck as would be needed for a fold, etc., etc.

I believe the player is doing nothing more than moving the chips closer to the dealer while he/she decides what to do.  I know that I have done this many, many times and NEVER has anyone claimed a minimal movement forward of the original chips from the SB is indicative of anything.

At the same time, I can see where, depending upon the extent of the forward movement, one could think he/she was intending to fold, although there is no card movement. 

If there was some question, I again agree with Stuart and would speak to the player about making his/her actions clear.

Hope this helps!


MikeB

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Re: SB weird action
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2010, 11:16:16 PM »
Since this is a non-standard move, the player is at risk for an interpretation and ruling other than what they intend, and it's their fault, not the TDs. This is per TDA language placing responsibility for unclear actions on the player.

Personally I probably wouldn't fold them here but I might restrict them to a call or fold ..... it would depend on my impressions of the entirety of their gestures. More often than not in this situation the player has just made a mistake, thinking their bet is right and pushing it forward (which indicates they don't intend to raise)....   But whatever ruling they get, they're responsibile for it because of this nebulous action. Also they'd get a warning if I felt this was behavior trying to get a read.... Thanks for the post.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 11:36:02 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: SB weird action
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 06:01:22 AM »
I'm sorry but, I don't understand the question. Can you explain the situation with another example?
Nick C

chet

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Re: SB weird action
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2010, 05:08:24 PM »
Nick:

As I understand the question, the SB posted his chips in front of him/her, but not into the center of the table, just enough to be able to tell they were the posted SB and not part of his/her stack  (lets say 3-4 inches in front of his cards).  When it comes time for the SB to act, he/she moves the posted SB chips just a small amount towards the dealer (another 2-3 inches perhaps) but certainly not enough to be considered in the pot.  The SB player makes NO movement with his/her cards as would normally be the case if a fold was intended and does not pick up any additional chips from his/her stack.

My opinion is this is a meaningless act on the part of the player while he/she is figuring out whether to call, fold or raise.  I would not force any particular action. 

I think the dealer (whether a professional dealer or a self-dealt game) needs to clarify the SB act BEFORE proceeding.

DRNEAU - if this is not an accurate description, please clarify.

Does that help?

Nick C

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Re: SB weird action
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2010, 08:04:01 PM »
Chet,
 That helps. I would have to agree with you that all options should be open to the SB. I like what you say about the dealer clarifying the action to the SB before the big blind acts. I guess There's more to this situation because I'm still missing something. Did the BB think that he won the pot because, he thought the SB folded? If I am correct on my interpretation, then I would say that the SB player did nothing wrong.
Nick C