Author Topic: Limit mistakes, no action affected  (Read 1869 times)

paulferd

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Limit mistakes, no action affected
« on: February 23, 2010, 12:21:13 PM »
Had two situations come up in my monthly Omaha Hi-Lo Limit tournament where multiple denomination chips were place in the pot after a single bet.

1st situation: on the River in a 3 handed pot, level 200-400,
SB checks,
BB checks,
late position raiser declares "All-in" and tosses in a 1k chip.
SB puts in a call with 4 $100 chips,
BB tosses in a $500 and 3 $100 chips,

 the dealer declares raise and the BB immediately says, "that's not a raise it's a call." At this point the Late Position player had not said "call" or tapped his single 1k chip.  When I was called over the dealer describes the situation as I have here and the BB states that he saw the 1k chip, didn't pay attention to the SB's bet and assumed the bet was $800, which he thought he was calling. I don't play a lot of limit poker, but he stated that he does and as long as there was no action affected he can take the bet back. I see nothing in the TDA about that, and found in Robert's Rules:8. In limit poker, if you make a forward motion with chips and thus cause another player to act, you may be forced to complete your action. This seems to kind of speak to what the player was talking about. Even seeing the Robert's rules, it seems clear this should be a raise. Players should pay attention to actions, right?


2nd situation: 5 handed on the flop, level 300-600,
SB and BB check
there is a bet of $300 and 2 callers when it gets back to the
BB who throws in 2 $500 and 1 $100 chips,
again the player immediately takes the bet back and corrects his mistake, the original bettor had not made an action yet, but wants to protest that this too should be a raise because he threw in enough chips to raise.  Neither of these situations fall under the multiple same denominations chip rule (#33).

If this were no limit would the rulings be any different?
In both situations I ruled it was a raise.





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pbrannon

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Re: Limit mistakes, no action affected
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 12:37:53 PM »
If I'm understanding correctly, this was "limit", so with the blinds being 200/400, on the river the bet would be 800.
The SB call of 400 would not be enough. The BB thew in 800, which was a call. Why does anyone think there is a raise?
Maybe I'm misreading your post?

Situation #2 would definately be a raise to 600 and he would pull one of the 500 chips back.

paulferd

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Re: Limit mistakes, no action affected
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 01:46:12 PM »
sorry for the confusion, the level was 200-400, thus the blind 100-200 with a bet of 200 preflop and flop, 400 on turn and river.
2nd example bet of 300 preflop and flop, 600 turn and river.

Also forgot to mention someone asked me about intent vs. best interest of the game. It seemed to me in both cases the players' intent was to call, but the best interest of the game seems to me to be consistent a fair with mistakes made. As pointed out in many other threads, a player only needs to make one of these costly mistakes once to be very aware of not doing it again.

thanks for the input,
Paul
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Nick C

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Re: Limit mistakes, no action affected
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2010, 07:58:47 AM »
paulferd

  The first situation would not have confused any limit player if the dealer had announced the original bettors $1k chip as "$400" (which is all it could be). The original bettor should not have made his statement of "all-in" when tossing the bet to the pot  Both of these little moves could cause confusion. In a perfect situation, the bettor would have just said he was betting; example "I bet" or "four hundred" or just place his over sized chip in the betting area where the dealer would give him his $600 change. The dealer would have passed the action along to the next player in the SB position,who would have called and so would the BB. End of story. The player should not have been forced to raise if he immediately retracted his bet as stated. The reputation of players will follow them wherever they play. Dealers, floor persons and supervisors must always consider the intent of the player. It seems that the player in question should be allowed to withdraw his unintentional raise. A brief warning or a heads-up should be enough to let the player know that the next time, he might be forced to keep his bet in the pot.
  Your second situation is very common where a player picks up the wrong color chips as in your description (two $500 and one $100) possibly thinking that they were all $100 chips and they had no intention of raising. Honestly, I have to rule against your decision again and give the player the benefit of the doubt. If it happens again, then I might make a different ruling to be sure that he gets the message.
Nick C

Stuart Murray

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Re: Limit mistakes, no action affected
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 01:30:36 PM »
I agree Paul,

Both situations are a raise, second situation does seem like the player picked up two 500's by accident but then by the book if we make it a raise he will pay more attention to what he is doing in future.  Both situations meet the raise criteria of rule 33 also.

In situation 1 the first player who puts in a 1000 chip is only betting 400, the opening bet of the round - this is limit poker after all.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
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National Tournament Director