Author Topic: Loosli v. Farber: Loose bet action: Do basic bet rules need sharpening?  (Read 2526 times)

MikeB

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This seems to be the year of loose betting practice. We started out 2013 with the spreading habit of tossing out any token chip to represent a call... a practice which was resoundly discouraged at TDA Summit VI with the adoption of TDA Rule 39. 

Check out this video of Farber v. Loosli at this years WSOP, down to the last few tables:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8VW3ncnjNI

The action in question is Farber's gesture starting just after the river card is tabled at 1:34.

How would you rule in this situation?

Anything need to be clarified or emphasized in the rules?

Thanks to WedgeRock over at the HomePokerTourney forums (http://www.HomePokerTourney.com) for drawing attention to this incident.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 04:39:37 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Loosli v. Farber: Loose bet action: Do basic bet rules need sharpening?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2013, 06:52:12 PM »
Mike,

 I'll be very interested in anyone's reply if they allow such a bet. I've lobbied for words and gestures long ago for situations exactly like this. I can't believe that Farber can be in the category of a professional poker player and think he could get away with that.

K-Lo

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Re: Loosli v. Farber: Loose bet action: Do basic bet rules need sharpening?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2013, 07:25:30 PM »
Looked like a check to me.  In some rec games where I know players have a bad habit of thinking while tapping the table, I might give a warning... But even there I would prefer to simply enforce a check so they can learn from their mistake.  At this level though, I agree there is no excuse.  The only reason he got away with it was the opponent did not notice and no one bothered to contest it.

chet

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Re: Loosli v. Farber: Loose bet action: Do basic bet rules need sharpening?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2013, 07:33:50 PM »
I agree with the check, but............

If nobody makes an issue of it, including the dealer, why would it be called into question?

It is obvious to me that nobody "raised the issue" so let the hand proceed. 

Had somebody "raised the issue", then we have a whole different situation and I fail to see how the floor could rule this not a check.  However, since we don't have "instant replay" who is to say  ;)

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Loosli v. Farber: Loose bet action: Do basic bet rules need sharpening?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2013, 09:40:04 AM »
It is interesting that because it was not questioned, it's okay. The "gesture" (tapping the table on your turn to act), is clearly a check. However, I've seen situations where the opposing player welcomes the action, even though it was improper. Two conditions could be considered: 1 The action must be head to head and... 2 If the opposing player has no objection, it's acceptable.

 Would we then ever consider asking the opposing player, if he objects to changing the "checking gesture" to a bet?  I've actually experienced a similar situation in a game when a player clearly made a string raise. I told the player his bet was not valid, only to have his opponent tell me it was okay??? I allowed the string raise at the request of both player's.

Tristan

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Re: Loosli v. Farber: Loose bet action: Do basic bet rules need sharpening?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2013, 01:47:13 PM »
I would call it a check, but to be honest with you...deep down there is a part of me that does not like that ruling.  Watching the video, it was clear that he did not do it to get a tell or anything like that, in fact he gave a major tell himself when the dealer said "check" and he immediately protested.  Rules are made to protect, but it is unfortunate in situations like this that the rules regarding this apparent accident would force action to go different than the intent.  This is going to be similar to my response in the other thread regarding the string bet.


I've actually experienced a similar situation in a game when a player clearly made a string raise. I told the player his bet was not valid, only to have his opponent tell me it was okay??? I allowed the string raise at the request of both player's.

In our card room, in cash games, a string bet is not called by the dealer...only an active player in the hand can call it.  If that happens, then and only then, will the dealer enforce it (if it actually is a string).



Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: Loosli v. Farber: Loose bet action: Do basic bet rules need sharpening?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2013, 04:52:08 PM »
Tristan,

 I like your ruling for a cash game, unfortunately my scenario occurred in a tournament. Aren't dealers supposed to call all string bets?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 07:46:20 AM by Nick C »

Tristan

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Re: Loosli v. Farber: Loose bet action: Do basic bet rules need sharpening?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2013, 10:36:51 PM »
Tristan,
I like your ruling for a cash game, unfortunately my scenario occurred in a tournament. Aren't dealers supposed to call a string bets?

For sure!  Just thought you would find our house rule for cash games interesting.  :)
Tristan
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