Author Topic: Correct Verbalization of Raises  (Read 2584 times)

pbrannon

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 18
Correct Verbalization of Raises
« on: February 23, 2010, 10:28:05 AM »
We had this situation come up.

Blinds 500/1000
Player A raises to 3500 (which is a 2500 raise)
Player B says "I raise <pause about 6 seconds> 6000" and AS he is saying that he pushes out 3500 in one hand and 6000 in the other.

Player A claims that he should only be allowed to be out a total of 6000 (like is was reraised 2500 more), whereas Player B was trying to raise 6000 MORE.

What is the correct way to rule this, and what type of suggestions whould be given to the players on the correct way to announce?

paulferd

  • TDA Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Correct Verbalization of Raises
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 02:19:29 PM »
This seems pretty clear, his intention is to raise 6000 on top, he's placing all the chips in the pot at the same time. Raise stands.
this would only change if he said "Raise to 6000". In that case the raise should be 6000 total.
Sushi Poker-The Freshest Fish In NYC

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: Correct Verbalization of Raises
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 05:53:32 PM »
I agree with Paul.  There is NOTHING unclear about his statement.  He said, "I Raise 6000", he didn't say "I Raise to 6000 (which would have been the minimum raise.  It is perfectly clear to me that he intended the 6000 to be ON-TOP of the call.  In fact, if I had been at the table, I would have made him put in the 9500 total since verbal declarations are binding.

It appears Player A is trying to minimize the effect of Player B's action

Hope this helps!

Georg

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
    • Concord Card Casino
Re: Correct Verbalization of Raises
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 09:59:48 PM »
This might be an unclear statement depending on the "custom" if you can call it that. In the tournaments I directed and dealt in, stating "I raise 6000" means 6000 total. Otherwise he would have said "I raise 6000 more" But I should add that my native language is german and it is custom to state the total amount you wish to put in. In this situation with the 9500 in his hand, i would let him raise to 9500 but tell  him that usually we annouce the total amount of chips we intend to put in. I also met some UK players who regularly said "I raise it 5000 more" or something similar. I never played in the UK but it seemed custom to me that they announce the amount of the actual raise and not the total amount.

Georg

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 639
    • The Nuts Poker League
Re: Correct Verbalization of Raises
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2010, 10:10:27 AM »
I will prob go against the trend slightly here.  When a player states an amount only I will rule that the TOTAL BET unless they add "more" to their statement.  I do prefer player to either say "Raise, 6000 total" or "Raise 6000 more" or announce raise place their call in and then complete with the raise portion.

I partly agree with Chet etc about the saying Raise 6000, but that to me would have to be a continuous sentence, not with a long pause between the word raise and 6000. Where there has been a considerable pause I would enforce that to be the total bet only.

As with Georg however this might just be a native locale issue where Europeans state total or more whereas Americans do it slightly different.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3172
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Correct Verbalization of Raises
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2010, 06:29:02 AM »
pbrannon

 I think that an important element of the situation needs to be clarified. You stated that the raiser said 'raise' and pushed the amount of the bet with one hand and the intended raise with the other hand. The key here is, if both hands were moving forward at the same time. If that were the case, there would be no question that it is a legal raise. If the moves were made at different intervals (with any delay at all) then I would allow the minimal raise to a total of $6000, only.
Nick C