Author Topic: SB dealt three cards  (Read 3274 times)

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
SB dealt three cards
« on: August 21, 2013, 03:11:28 PM »
I'm posting this question on someone else's behalf:

A question for the cash game experts:

Dealer has dealt the SB an extra card.  SB doesn't notice this until after he looks at all three cards.  What happens if (a) substantial action has occurred?  (b) substantial action has not yet occurred?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 03:12:51 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: SB dealt three cards
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2013, 03:36:58 PM »
Ken,

 Substantial action is irrelevant once the player looks at his three cards. The SB hand is dead, and play continues. You might want to consider returning the player's SB amount. We actually had a "slush fund" for such occurrences, based on the dealer (or house) mistake. After killing the SB, I would take one of the dead cards (face down, of course) and return it to the deck as the burn, thus assuring proper card for the remainder of the hand. Players need to protect their own hand. If the extra card were noticed before it was picked up and mingled with the proper cards, it could have been returned to the deck, no problem. Unfortunately, that did not happen.

 That's how I see it.

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 639
    • The Nuts Poker League
Re: SB dealt three cards
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2013, 04:28:58 PM »
Afraid I would take a slightly different approach;

If the player brings attention to the fact before substantial action occurs it is a misdeal - based on the player having looked at three cards.

If substantial action occurs his hand is dead, I would not return his SB as that opens the door to problems when for example a player goes all-in, gets called and flips over three cards, it is the players responsibility to draw attention to the error without delay in order to protect his right to action.

If it is immediately noticed and had not been intermingled & looked at with his proper hole cards it could of been returned to the deck and continue play as normal.


Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: SB dealt three cards
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2013, 04:46:53 PM »
Sorry Stuart,

 There would be no misdeal, in any cash game I've worked, when all other players have their complete proper cards. I can't imagine you giving up your pocket kings because the dealer gave the SB an extra card.

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 733
Re: SB dealt three cards
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2013, 06:39:16 PM »
Nick:  Wonder of wonders, we agree!!!

The SB player has the total responsibility to bring this problem to the attention of the dealer.  The only way his hand would not be dead would be if he said something to the dealer immediately and before the BB or any other player looks at their downcard for that round of the deal.  In other words, if he gets two cards on the first round he has to say something as soon as that happens.  Same thing on the 2nd round of the deal.  So that there is time for the dealer to "back things up" and make sure the proper cards go to the proper player and that no other player has seen an incorrect card.

Absence the above timely action by the SB player, his hand is dead, kaput, period, no recourse, no misdeal and no refund!

Chet

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
Re: SB dealt three cards
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2013, 08:34:07 AM »
Thanks, guys.

I am told by the person who asked this question that their venue allows the floor to choose one card at random from the SB to expose and then use as the burn card.  Even if substantial action has occurred (I'm assuming still preflop though...???).  I've never heard of this -- seems unorthodox to me.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: SB dealt three cards
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2013, 02:56:13 PM »
Ken,

 Your answer has me thinking a little deeper on this one. :-\ From the original post I assumed that the dealer dealt the third card by passing the button and dealing one more card to the SB. If that is what happened I stand by my earlier post. However, after playing out several different scenario's, I realize that "my assumption" might have been incorrect...Let's say that the SB realizes that the dealer deals two cards (that stick together), when the first card comes off the deck. Or, two cards are dealt while dealing the second hole card. This would alter the proper cards to others and would be reason for a misdeal if detected before substantial action.

 Your last post is also one that I've never heard, either.
" I am told by the person who asked this question that their venue allows the floor to choose one card at random from the SB to expose and then use as the burn card.  Even if substantial action has occurred (I'm assuming still preflop though...Huh).  I've never heard of this -- seems unorthodox to me."

Tristan

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 453
Re: SB dealt three cards
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2013, 08:28:04 AM »
This would alter the proper cards to others and would be reason for a misdeal if detected before substantial action.

Correct!  Our house procedure is a misdeal if substantial action has not occurred. 

their venue allows the floor to choose one card at random from the SB to expose and then use as the burn card.  Even if substantial action has occurred (I'm assuming still preflop though...???).  I've never heard of this -- seems unorthodox to me.

I've never heard of that either.  I don't really like it as it could lead to doubt directed at the floor.  For example: the floor ends up choosing the card that the player had their finger on last.  Player ends up with A,A and wins the hand.  Players, looking for any reason that they lost unfairly, point it out.

Although in all reality it's rare enough that a person in the SB would be dealt three cards and it's very very doubtful that the floor and a player worked out signals for a scenario like that...  Bottom line is it isn't necessarily about what actually happened, but more about perception of what happened.  I don't like scenarios that can cast doubt on the floor...the reason we (poker rooms) exist is because people are willing to pay a rake for a secure game, no reason to make them start second-guessing that!
Tristan
@TristanWilberg on Twitter