Author Topic: Selling Full Stacks  (Read 3622 times)

Stuart Murray

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Selling Full Stacks
« on: August 17, 2013, 05:36:45 PM »
Hi all, I am trying to implement the new rules for 2013.  Our rules currently in force allow for a chip reduction penalty, which is dark ages I know, and I did manage to word in an early registration bonus into the rule as an alternative when we revised 2 years ago.  Now I'm floating the 2013 compatible revision to colleagues in order to tweak wording etc and wish to solely switch to the full stacks, but am receiving a huge resistance to change on this issue.

In order for our company to be compatible on all issues I need (and want) to bring in this rule, but need some real compelling arguments for who what when where and why to satisfy the grumblings!  Some operators will penalise by upto 50% reduction in stack under the current rules, so hopefully that gives you an impression of the mammoth task I have in front of me.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

chet

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Re: Selling Full Stacks
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2013, 08:39:34 PM »
Stuart:

To quote a long ago American President, "Speak Softly and carry a Big Stick".

You need to get a bigger stick, that damn Cricket thing just isn't cuttin' it.   ;)

You pointed out what I feel is the most important reason for this change.  I quote, "Some operators will penalise by upto 50% reduction in stack under the current rules,..."  Lack of consistency is one of the major points that the TDA is trying to resolve. 

Chet



Nick C

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Re: Selling Full Stacks
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2013, 08:17:44 AM »
Hello Stuart,

 I don't know the "nuts and bolts" of your tournaments but, if a new rule interferes with the success that you've had in the past...I'd say, "if it ain't broke...."
Your regular players can give you the answer your looking for. I know that you will still be in compliance with the TDA. After all, who is more knowledgeable than you when it comes to what's best for "The Nuts Poker League."

 It's one of those rules that has pros and cons. Perhaps your feedback might prompt an amendment to the rule for Version 2.0 or bring it back to the table for Summit VII.

 The current rule doesn't seem to encourage early entrants, does it?

Tristan

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Re: Selling Full Stacks
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2013, 08:31:21 AM »
Perhaps you can adjust your structure to accommodate?  Another way would be to encourage early registration.  If a person registers but does not show up on time, they do get a blinded stack.  This works within the rules because they were sold a full stack, they just did not chose to show up in time to take advantage of it.
Tristan
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Selling Full Stacks
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2013, 03:50:52 PM »
Thanks for the feedback I ended up with this on Revision D:

B2 Late Entries, Re-Entries, Early Bonuses & Absent Players*
i players entering the Tournament as Late Entries, Re-Entries, Alternates^ or otherwise later than other players shall be sold full stacks, local variations of the Late Registration scheme may utilise a penalty of not more than 30% of the full stack for late arrival.
ii Late entry into Tournaments must be made available to players for a minimum of the first 3 blind levels.  Regional and National events shall be subject to availability and shall use an alternate system where required
iii Tournament Operators may provide an Early Registration Bonus scheme of not more than 20% of the full stack, where provided this must utilise a full stack to all other players.
iv Players shall not be penalised for being absent from the table and shall post blinds & antes as normal without prejudice.
*The legality of Re-Entries and Re-Buys must be satisfied at all times, under the terms of the Gambling Act 2005. These rule items are provided for completeness and for sake of venues that meet or exceed the requirements in said act
^ The use of an Alternate system is reserved by The Nuts Poker League for use as we see fit but shall not, in normal circumstance be used as a regular feature.


That's the semi-final revision! I'm kinda pushing other Franchises to move over with some gentle nudging, rather as ramming the "thoroughly modern" way down their throats, hopefully when the 2015 revision comes out most of the local variations with reduction penalties shall be dead and buried, with everyone having switched over to early bonus and full stacks.

Stu

oh and PS Chet, I'm Scottish - Cricket has no appeal to the mass general population north of Hadrians Wall - far too much pretentious rubbish involved in the game for our liking!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 03:55:23 PM by Stuart Murray »
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Tristan

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Re: Selling Full Stacks
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2013, 05:54:20 PM »
Nicely done Stuart!  :)
Tristan
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MikeB

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Re: Selling Full Stacks
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2013, 10:43:53 AM »
Hi all, I am trying to implement the new rules for 2013.  Our rules currently in force allow for a chip reduction penalty, which is dark ages I know, and I did manage to word in an early registration bonus into the rule as an alternative when we revised 2 years ago.  Now I'm floating the 2013 compatible revision to colleagues in order to tweak wording etc and wish to solely switch to the full stacks, but am receiving a huge resistance to change on this issue.

In order for our company to be compatible on all issues I need (and want) to bring in this rule, but need some real compelling arguments for who what when where and why to satisfy the grumblings!  Some operators will penalise by upto 50% reduction in stack under the current rules, so hopefully that gives you an impression of the mammoth task I have in front of me.

Regards
Stuart

Hi Stu:
On this subject I think you would benefit from listening to the discussion on the Summit VI videos. I'll try and look up the video-hour-minute segment and post same here later today if nobody beats me to it. The term "sold" full stacks as opposed to "receive" a full stack is meaningful. It has to do with what happens at time of their buy-in: all players buying into the tournament will receive at time of their purchase the same stack, i.e they are "sold" a full stack. Now, if the player then delays getting to the table for a period of time after consummation of their buy-in, they may or may not receive a full stack, depending on the policy of the house (i.e. their stack may have been blinded off between the time they purchased it and the time they actually got to the table and started playing).

If the wording instead were "receive a full stack" this might imply that I could go to the cashier after the tourney starts, buy into the event, then go to the bar, have a beer, come back to the table when I feel like it and "receive" a full stack when I sit down to play. Anyway, listen to the videos for more background on this and thanks for the post.

See also Martin Roy's interesting post on related subject here:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=905.msg8001#msg8001
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 11:53:59 AM by MikeB »

chet

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Re: Selling Full Stacks
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2013, 04:38:01 PM »
Guys:

What happens if rule #7 was changed to say, Alternates, players registering late, and re-entries must purchase full stacks. 

In my opinion, that changes the onus from the "house" to the "player".  It seems to me that then the house or the TD can do whatever is within their rules to adjust for late players, Alternates, etc.  If the house deems it appropriate to blind them off, or make some other adjustment, I believe that can be done.

It removes the argument for the player arriving 1 hour, 45 minutes late that:  "I paid for 1,000 chips, so why do I only get 800?"  Because the house rule says that for every hour our part of an hour that a player arrives late, 100 chips will be removed from that players starting stack.  Of course, then it would not be fair to have that player blinded off as well.

Chet

MikeB

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Re: Selling Full Stacks
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2013, 05:21:00 PM »
Stu: found the video of the Summit VI discussion on "all players will be sold a full stack". It starts around 2:18 to 2:19 on the Day 2 morning session and runs through around 2:41 when the vote is taken on the language. It's interesting discussion that may shed light on how you might want to look at implementing the rule.

Link to videos is here:
http://www.pokertda.com/the-poker-tda-summit/2013-poker-tda-summit-vi/
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 05:23:26 PM by MikeB »

MikeB

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Re: Selling Full Stacks
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 07:36:57 AM »

It removes the argument for the player arriving 1 hour, 45 minutes late that:  "I paid for 1,000 chips, so why do I only get 800?"  Because the house rule says that for every hour our part of an hour that a player arrives late, 100 chips will be removed from that players starting stack....

Chet
Chet the above is also accomplished by the TDA rule as written: "all players will be sold full stacks".  In your example above, the player should have been sold 1000 chips when he made his buy-in 1 hour 45 minutes ago. As long as he was sold 1000 chips at that time, this venue is TDA compliant. What happens in the intervening hour and 45 is up to house policy... my guess is that there is just so much variation in that policy that it may never be standardized.

The upshot of the rule is that everyone has the opportunity to enter the event with the same size stack. If some players can't manage their time, coordinate their purchases with their arrival, etc., and the house has a policy of reducing the stack (or not), that's the player's problem to navigate. Which sort of gets to your point that important responsibility still lies with the player.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 07:40:16 AM by MikeB »

chet

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Re: Selling Full Stacks
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2013, 07:53:41 AM »
Mike:  In my, apparently unclear example, the player does not buy in and then disappear for the hour and 45 min.  He arrives late at the venue and I would describe this as a 'late entry'.

This is not a big issue for me, but I don't think the language is all that clear.  After watching the video, I understand the full stack concept and I guess I agree with Matt (and others) that such should work to bring more players into the venue.

Chet

Stuart Murray

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Re: Selling Full Stacks
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2013, 09:01:39 AM »
Thanks for the video link, watched with interest.  Think this will be a long and winding road to get opinion to change on the matter, but will work away at it!

Stu
Stuart Murray
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Nick C

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Re: Selling Full Stacks
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2013, 09:48:44 AM »
Stuart,

 I really like that..."long and winding road."  :-\ I also like what you have written: The use of an Alternate system is reserved by The Nuts Poker League for use as we see fit but shall not, in normal circumstance be used as a regular feature.