Author Topic: Any chance to consider Jack Effel's suggestion for all showdowns?  (Read 2427 times)

Nick C

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 During the recent summit, there was much discussion about the right to see a players called hand at the showdown. Jack mentioned (several times), why not show all cards at the showdown, just like we do whenever a player is all-in? This would surely guarantee that the best hand would get the pot. I've been preaching this for years! It was good to hear one of the new respected TDA board member say it, to.

 Never could understand how the "integrity of the game" should only be protected when some player is all-in??? Do we not care about integrity during non all-in contests?

 So...Mike, are we going to consider it? Should we talk about it a little more?

 Where is Jack anyway?

 

MikeB

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Re: Any chance to consider Jack Effel's suggestion for all showdowns?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2013, 09:19:32 PM »
Hi Nick. As I interpret the rules, it is entirely within a TDs prerogative to require any specific cards to be shown at showdown, including the winning hand, or even all cards if they so choose because the rules provide:

"...Except where house policy requires a hand to be shown or provides an express right to see a hand on request, asking to see a hand is a privilege granted at TDs discretion...."

So, if you as TD declare house policy to be that all cards at showdown must be shown, that's within the language above.

Obviously there is a large contingent that does not favor requiring all hands to be shown, for various reasons. So there are at least 2, probably 3 camps on this issue, the language above permits all to co-exist within the larger tent of the TDA. What is certain is that TDs should make their specific house policy clear on the matter so that players know what to expect.

I'm sure that which hands must be shown / may be shown / are a right to see on request / are a privilege to see / will come up again at Summit VII, but from what I've observed it really gets to philosophy of the game, and this is one of those issues where we may never have a super-majority, much less 100% agreement, hence the rule has to provide latitude....  A GREAT DEAL of progress was made on sharpening this and other issues pertaining to the showdown at Summit VI, IMO some of the most important results of the Summit.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 09:53:57 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Any chance to consider Jack Effel's suggestion for all showdowns?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 04:13:30 AM »
Thanks Mike,

 I like that we are at least talking about it and not treating it like we're doing something wrong if we allow players to see a called hand. It's good to know that we would not be in violation of a TDA rule...without referring to good old rule #1.

MikeB

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Re: Any chance to consider Jack Effel's suggestion for all showdowns?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2013, 08:10:45 AM »

 I like that we are not treating it like we're doing something wrong if we allow players to see a called hand.

Not only not doing something wrong.... At Summit VI, almost every possible situation of must-table-always and must-table-on-request was discussed. The one condition for which there was 99% agreement is that a called aggressive hand on the last betting street must be tabled at showdown if a caller requests to see it. As TDA Board member Jack Effel put it, speaking for the majority "that's information you paid for". This was further clarified as a right not a privilege, i.e. you can call 20 hands in a row on the final street and at 20 showdowns in a row ask to see the hand you called... it must be shown everytime, as opposed to a privilege which the TD may or may not grant at his sole discretion. Another proviso is that the requesting caller must retain possession of his hand when making the request (doesn't have to table it, but must be in possession of it).

Beyond this one situation, everything else is house policy at this time:
"Beyond 18-A, except where house policy requires a hand to be tabled or provides an express right to see a hand on request, asking to see a hand is a privilege granted at TDs discretion. This privilege is not to be abused." So if the house wants to go further and say that this hand, or that hand, or the winning hand, must always be shown or must be shown on request, then that's the house policy that players should be aware of. But unless the house specifically stipulates exceptions, "players may elect to muck their hand face down".
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 11:11:29 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Any chance to consider Jack Effel's suggestion for all showdowns?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 08:14:24 PM »
You might want to take a look back at this one:         http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=556.15