Author Topic: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?  (Read 5607 times)

K-Lo

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Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« on: March 25, 2013, 10:04:50 AM »
Put this under "news, views, and gossip"...  ;)

I have to say it will be interesting to observe the "big" players at the Summit, this year.  That is... assuming that they all attend.  As an "outsider" looking in, it seems to me that there may be some politics or personality issues at play that would appear to act as a barrier to a worldwide standardization of rules.  Different "factions" seem to want to push their own rule sets; the Americans and Europeans seem reluctant to co-operate and form a single unified body (could this even be possible); the WSOP, WPT, EPT, and TDA approaches to various issues seem to be diverging rather than converging, etc.

Is there anything that can be done to promote more co-operation with the goal of standardizing rules worldwide?  Or is this, practically speaking, an unrealistic goal?

Tristan

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2013, 01:28:49 PM »
Good question.  Even just in the small group of more frequent posters on this forum there is a lot of disagreements. 

While discussion for improvement is good, I feel like adamant opposition to rules that were voted in by the summit is bad for our cause.  We need to be a unified front if we want others to be unified with us.

A lot of people come here for solutions to problems...how does it look to them if the discussion they read has things like "I don't agree with this rule, and that is why I opposed it" and things similar to that.  They come here for a solution and end up getting differing opinions.  Things get voted in because the majority wanted them that way.  Most rules will never have 100% agreement from all factions, but even if we are the minority we need to support the whole.  We need to be positive and move forward.

The whole purpose of the TDA is standardization and unification. 

By all means, I think a potential addition to the TDA Rules should be looked at from every perspective and all opinions should be heard, but once it is put to a vote and voted in I think it needs 100% support by us.

Just my 2c.  Sorry for the rant, and I hope you all know I am not directing this at anyone, just speaking in a general sense.
Tristan
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K-Lo

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2013, 02:38:31 PM »
Hey Tristan.

I take your point, although I don't mind exploring issues "internally" on the forum to get a sense of how people feel the rules could be improved.  We actual tend to agree on a lot of things  ;)

I was thinking more along the lines of the TDA as a whole versus WSOP versus e.g. European groups such as IFP or FIDPA, for example?  I get the feeling that the "head guys" are trying to be civil to one another, but don't have any intention of co-ordinating their efforts towards a common goal of standardization.  I guess I can understand why -- each has to look out for his own business -- but am I the only one who gets the sense that we will always have the major tourneys "doing their own thing"?  Or (here's the gossipy part), perhaps some of these guys just don't like each other that much. I don't know.

I may be blasted for this, but until I see TDA, WSOP, and PSLive tourneys working off the same rule book, we will never achieve true standardization. 

Tristan

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2013, 03:01:11 PM »
Very true.  Although most of them do include the vast majority of TDA rules in their own rules...they tend to have a couple variations.  Is that a majority win, or a partial loss?   :P  I would love to everyone on the same page, but you are right, it might be a pipe dream.

And don't get me wrong, I think most of the discussions here are positive and help us create a better product.  I was just thinking about how many card rooms have put aside their own thoughts or rules in order to incorporate TDA; even if they don't always agree with all of the rules. 
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2013, 03:13:21 PM »
Ken and Tristan,

 Great posts by both. I am the most outspoken member of the TDA, that's no secret. This is a perfect time to take a serious look at exactly what we (the TDA members) are trying to accomplish: This is our first paragraph; before General Concepts.

The Poker TDA is comprised of poker room personnel from around the world whose objective is to draft a standardized set of rules for poker tournaments. The following TDA rules supplement the standard....

 I've always believed that the TDA should become the foundation for all other rule-sets, this would allow others worldwide to more easily adopt our basic, fundamental rules. i.,e. "Check raise is allowed," "Verbal is binding," "Awarding odd chips," "Dead Button Rule,"  "Misdeals," "Substantial Action," "Button in Heads-Up," "Oversize Chip Rule" "Number of Allowable Raises," "Ethical Play,"...and several others.

 My 2Cents might rankle some feathers but, this is how I feel: The introduction of any new rule, because it is accepted by the WSOP, or WPT, or any other major International Tournament does little to achieve our goal of standardization for poker rules. Introducing any "controversial rule" will only create further separation, which is exactly the opposite of what we are trying to accomplish. IMO, the TDA rules should be easy for player's, dealer's and anyone involved in tournament poker games, whether they are major events, or fundraisers or social events! 

 No new rules! Let's fix the existing ones that need attention. Well that was my 2 Cents, with an all-in raise to a nickel. ;D

Tristan

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2013, 03:42:27 PM »
Well that was my 2 Cents, with an all-in raise to a nickel. ;D

You threw in your 2c before you said 'raise', I'm going to have to hold you to a call sir.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 04:16:06 PM by Tristan »
Tristan
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K-Lo

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2013, 03:42:50 PM »
You highlight one of the key issues... What happens when new rules are adopted by non-TDA organizers?  If we say that we simply shouldn't incorporate any new rules, then that is just going to further discourage widespread use of TDA rules because you are discouraging buy-in from other the organizers.  You cannot force others to comply by having them adopt rules (or not to adopt rules) if they believe they have a good reason for implementing the new rule.

As Tristan pointed out, many smaller card rooms simply choose to adopt TDA rules as a default, often without adopting any additional house rules, or very few of them.  That is a huge step.  In an ideal world though, the "bigger players" would do the same, thus leading by example.  But we don't see this happening, leading me to think aloud about what the real barriers to the movement really are.

K-Lo

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2013, 03:49:01 PM »
You threw in your 2c before you said 'raise', I'm going to have to hold you to a call sir.

Ha ha.  Love it!  :P

Nick C

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2013, 05:02:49 PM »
Okay guys...here it is in a nutshell. How many new poker rooms adopted the TDA rules since Accepted Action was introduced in 2011?

Who knows? Does anyone care to make a wager? More new followers after 2011, or a drop-off in followers?


K-Lo

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2013, 06:51:06 PM »
Just saw the announcement that Jack Effel (WSOP), Tab from Borgata and Neil from PokerStars are joining the board.  Great additions, and glad they accepted.  This is a big step towards greater standardization for sure.  Hurray and welcome.

Ken

Tristan

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2013, 07:22:27 PM »
Nice!
Tristan
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K-Lo

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2013, 09:40:56 AM »
The more that I think about this, the more I think this is probably the biggest news on the rules front this year... And it does not even involve a rule change!  Whoever came up with the idea of opening the doors on the board to WSOP and PokerStars live rulemakers is a genius.  Sure, there may still be discrepancies between different tournament rules and TDA rules, but at least the chances that there will be an open dialogue and some attempt at uniformity are undoubtedly much higher now than they were before.

Nick C

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2013, 08:13:48 AM »
Ken,

 Well said, and I'm sure our members agree. I can't wait for the new board members to respond on our forum. Their participation will be just what we need.

Linda Johnson

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2013, 04:15:55 PM »
Hi,
We are very happy to have our new Board members and obviously we are eager to get a lot of uniformity in rules with the WPT, WSOP, EPT, etc. Of course there still will be some rules that will be unique to each venue's rule book. I've been proud to be a founding TDA member and a Board member since its inception, but I'm really looking forward to seeing how our new members help to expand the TDA mission.
Linda Johnson

Spence

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Re: Standardization of rules -- a pipe dream?
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2015, 06:56:16 AM »
It's nice to hear a board member chime in on this so thanks Linda.  I also agree that we are going to have some regional differences but the core rules do need to be standardized.  When I wrote the tournament rules for our poker rooms first big event I had 84 of them.  A few were specific cases that needed addressing in our card room but the core TDA rules were in there.  The other issue is that we all have jurisdiction to deal with. A lot of government partnership throws a wrench in what we're trying to accomplish. 
I think that the TDA rules should cover the minimum that a room can run by and doing so would allow the rules to continue to evolve as the years go on and the game changes.  It should be the first (now 41) rules of any property or event and regional rules can follow that.