Author Topic: 1) All-in cards not tabled 2) when r cards dead at showdown 3) Tabling- ANZPT  (Read 12498 times)

K-Lo

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So this "big incident" was reported by PokerStars Blog... apparently a huge issue:

http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/anzpt/2013/anzpt-sydney-bubble-bursts-huge-incident-131684.html

Perhaps I'm missing something, but isn't this a straightforward decision under TDA rules?  In an all-in situation, all hands must be turned up.  Tabled hands cannot be killed.  

As long as there is no doubt that the 5s were in the player's actual hand, the hand plays, and it does not matter (in fact, the other players at the table should have an obligation to point out errors in procedure while they still can be corrected) that some other player asked for the hand to be tabled.  Therefore, I think under TDA rules, the decision is easy and different from what was decided.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 09:24:24 AM by MikeB »

D.C.

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Re: All-in cards not tabled - ANZPT
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2013, 08:48:14 AM »
Hi K-Lo,

I agree. In the tournaments I run, we follow TDA standards, therefore cards would have been tabled and the best hand won. Simple.

Also, I don't see why they had to stop play for so long.

Regards,
DC
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Nick C

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Re: All-in cards not tabled - ANZPT
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2013, 12:06:08 PM »
DC & K-Lo,

 I agree with both of you. It's also interesting that they allowed the mucked hand to be tabled upon request. This is a perfect example of the differences between tournaments and cash games. This was handled as if it were a cash game. Thirty minutes and they still got it wrong.

MikeB

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Under TDA Rules there's no question that both of these hands should have been turned up after an all-in was made, called, and all betting action for the hand was complete after betting on the flop.

But that didn't happen for the obvious reason that this venue doesn't use that rule.

What I find more interesting is this quotation from the article:
"This was because in The Star rule book, there is nothing that says players must show their hands when all-in, and that because there was 'forward motion with the intention to muck' from the player with the better hand, his hand was deemed dead"..

This gets to the critical question of when cards are dead and can no longer be tabled by the player at showdown..

If we assume that everyone agrees that a clearly tabled hand ("tabling" also needs to be defined) which is the best hand cannot be mucked, then that only leaves the question of when a non-tabled hand is dead at showdown. Is it: A) when a player makes a "muck-like" gesture, tossing cards forward face down without any verbal (as in this case) or B) when a player makes a statement that can be construed as capitulation (such as "looks like you win") or C) only if a player formally declares "fold"; or D) once the dealer takes possession; or E) once the dealer does a "killing ritual" such as tap to the muck; or F) only when the cards are buried irretrievably in the muck.

Then we have the tangent question of asking to see a hand (ATSAH). Even if the hand is dead by something less than F above, if the "winning" surviving player asks to see the hand is it now live? OR is it that even if the hand is still live, if someone other than the surviving winning player asks to see the hand it is dead upon being shown?

Clarifying all this in one rule seems doable and would certainly resolve alot of showdown disputes that involve the question of whether a hand is live or not at the showdown.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 08:20:43 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Mike,

 
Our rule (TDA) would have prevented that mess, for sure. Assuming we are only speaking of tournament poker, I believe that forcing all players in for all bets (all-in or not), is the best solution. Asking to see a hand (at least a called hand) has been a basic showdown procedure forever. Exactly when it was changed, I don't know. Perhaps we should reconsider the numerous advantages we would achieve: The best hand would surely win.
                                                                               Possible chip dumping and collusion could be compromised.

I never could understand how showing all hands at the showdown, only when an all-in player is involved, protects the integrity of the game? ???

As far as a showdown situation not involving an all-in, I say a hand is dead once it is surrendered by the owner and is mucked by the dealer. This, of course, will only apply if the hand were not properly tabled.

What is a properly tabled hand? One that is exposed, face-up, for all to see. It is unnecessary to fully release the cards from your hand. The recommended method would be to hold the cards in a manner that secures them, yet they are clearly visible to all. Cards should only be released when a better hand is tabled, or only after the dealer has pushed you the pot!
                                                                              
                                                                  
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 08:23:05 AM by MikeB »

K-Lo

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Under TDA Rules there's no question that both of these hands should have been turned up after an all-in was made, called, and all betting action for the hand was complete after betting on the flop.

But that didn't happen for the obvious reason that this venue doesn't use that rule.

What I find more interesting is this statement:
This was because in The Star rule book, there is nothing that says players must show their hands when all-in, and that because there was "forward motion with the intention to muck" from the player with the better hand, his hand was deemed dead..

This gets to the critical question of when cards are dead and can no longer be tabled by the player.. If we assume that everyone agrees that a clearly tabled hand (which also needs to be defined) which iis the best hand cannot be mucked, then that only leaves the question of when a non-tabled hand is dead at showdown. Is it: A) when a player makes a "muck-like" gesture, tossing cards forward face down without any verbal (as in this case) or B) when a player makes a statement that can be construed as capitulation (such as "looks like you win") or C) only if a player formally declares "fold"; or D) once the dealer takes possession; or E) once the dealer does a "killing ritual" such as tap to the muck; or F) only when the cards are buried irretrievably in the muck.

Then we have the tangent question of asking to see a hand (ATSAH). Even if the hand is dead by something less than F above, if the "winning" surviving player asks to see the hand is it now live? OR is it that even if the hand is still live, if someone other than the surviving winning player asks to see the hand it is dead upon being shown?

Clarifying all this in one rule seems doable and would certainly resolve alot of showdown disputes that involve the question of whether a hand is live or not at the showdown.

Nice Post!  +1

MikeB

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Nick, thanks alot, replies below....

Asking to see a hand (at least a called hand) has been a basic showdown procedure forever. Exactly when it was changed, I don't know.


Let's look at a couple of written rules currently in effect:

A: From RRoP, Section 3, The Showdown, Rule 5: Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

Note that RRoP uses the term "folded" to apply to a hand discarded at showdown... don't want to make a big deal out of this, I think it's understood he's referring to a "mucked" hand at showdown, but it does raise the question of whether declaring "fold" at showdown is binding. If it is, then is any other verbal utterance that definitely would kill a hand during a betting round also kill a hand at the showdown? If so, then we really need to parse language at showdown extremely carefully, yes? and is that what we want to do at showdown... monitor language with the same specificity we use while betting is underway.

Note also if the "winning" surviving player asks to see a non-tabled and mucked hand "both hands are live and the best hand wins"... so the ONLY action that can revive a dead non-tabled hand at showdown is the "winning" player asking to see it, according to this rule, yes?

B: From WSOP 2012 Tournament Rules, #70: At showdown, any Participant at the table may request to see a folded hand from any Participant who has called all bets on the last round of betting. The winning hand must be shown to claim the pot. If a Participant refuses to show their hand and intentionally mucks his or her hand, the Participant in violation will receive a penalty.

Note this language also uses the term "fold" to apply to a hand discarded at showdown; raising the same questions as in RRoP. The rule is not clear as to whether a hand previously folded that is shown pursuant to a request by another player is live or dead, nor is a distinction made between whether the person asking to see the hand is the current "winner" or a player who lost.



As far as a showdown situation not involving an all-in, I say a hand is dead once it is surrendered by the owner and is mucked by the dealer. This, of course, will only apply if the hand were not properly tabled.


Those are really two steps to a hand dying: 1) surrendered by the owner and 2) mucked by the dealer.

What if it's surrendered by the owner (a forward face-down toss), but the dealer has not yet touched the cards... can the player change his mind and table them?

Then that raises the question of what is "mucked by dealer"... is that A) irretrievably buried in the muck OR B) merely in possession by the dealer (upon first dealer touch) OR C) tapping the cards to the muck or some other killing ritual?


What is a properly tabled hand? One that is exposed, face-up, for all to see. It is unnecessary to fully release the cards from your hand. The recommended method would be to hold the cards in a manner that secures them, yet they are clearly visible to all. Cards should only be released when a better hand is tabled, or only after the dealer has pushed you the pot!

So that gives us at least 4 definitions of tabling:

Nicks language  "exposed face-up for all to see";  

FIDPA merely says a tabled hand is a  "shown" hand;

WSOP Rule 69 says "A tabled hand is defined as a hand that a Participant places on the table such that the dealer and all Participants at the table can read" (what if I still hold them in my hand but the edges of the cards are touching the table, and the value is unmistakable, have I "placed them on the table"?)

RRoP (Section 3, Showdown, Rule 1): "...show all of his cards faceup on the table..."

TDA rules do not yet formally define tabling but 2 rules come close: Rule 11: "All cards will be turned face up" and Rule 13: "A player must show all hole cards..."

This might seem like minutiae, but what we want to avoid is giving a protesting player any hole they can find in the rules to kill a better hand at showdown b/c it wasn't formally tabled according to a precise reading of the rules. Clearing this up once and for all is worth discussing.... and while on that seemingly simple topic, clear up: A) when a hand is dead at the showdown; AND B) what the ATSAH rules are.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 09:34:32 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Thanks Mike,

 I always try to use existing rules so new student dealers avoid situations that we run into every day in tournaments. Before I begin further explanation, I'd like to answer your question about a player declaring fold at showdown. I say the hand is live until it is mucked. The solution is: have the dealer stop action from the next player until the hand in question is surrendered to the dealer and mucked. Please note: a mucked hand is not placed on top of the existing muck, it is irretrievably buried!

 When a player requests to see a called hand, the dealer must be prepared to prevent that hand from hitting the muck.

 It is interesting reading all of the different rules for showdown. The suggestions I made, are the ones I teach. Take a look at the benefits of holding your cards until the winner of the pot you are competing for is settled...We have had numerous situations where the "would be winner" of the hand releases their cards before the losing hands are mucked. Following some basic simple procedures at showdown is arguably the single most important fundamental lesson for any dealer, IMO.

Tristan

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Cut and dry under TDA rules, but totally different under the Star rule book.  Would be tough having to make that ruling as a TD if you were used to TDA rules, especially if most of the players are familiar with TDA.

The Tournament Director should have been called before the cards were retrieved from the muck by the dealer imo, but it probably would not have changed the decision in this circumstance.
Tristan
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Pietro3000

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Well After reading about this particular situation I noticed as stated in the PS blog that was several versions of what really happened.

My best guess is that there is missing and important part: A third player

It is only one case scenario that comes to my mind about why the cards were not turn up right after the AQ  all in`s were called.

So, taking this factor into consideration have a lot of sense that none of the players involved showed their cards until the end of the hand.

Now recreating once again the hand it seems to be that the AQ were the first to show his cards then 55 folded and XX folded too.

If that was the case I will support the TD call on the floor since at that moment the cards Face Up once all the remaining players were all ins was not mandatory since not all the involved players were all in.

And the showdown order was followed normally and was the player responsibility to show his cards.

Then come the curiosity of the AQ player to see his opponent hand and get him self in an unwanted situation to be eliminated and the very well concern of other players if may was some form of collusion.

Thanks

Ptt English is not my first language
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 12:55:42 PM by Pietro3000 »
Thank you, Pura Vida

Pietro3000

K-Lo

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...
If that was the case I will support the TD call on the floor since at that moment the cards Face Up once all the remaining players were all ins was not mandatory since not all the involved players were all in.

And the showdown order was followed normally and was the player responsibility to show his cards.


Hi Pietro:  Welcome to the forum.

If there was indeed another player involved, it may have made things more interesting.  But I should note that if all three players went to showdown, and only one player is all-in, all three players are still supposed to show their cards according to the TDA rules.  The only way that the third player would not have to show his hand is if he were bet into prior to showdown and chose to fold rather than to call.  But the current rule that all hands must be shown when a player is all-in does not require that every single player at showdown be all-in.

The reason for having everyone show whenever even one player is all-in  is to ensure that the winning hand is properly identified when an elimination may occur; this protects all players in the tournament.  This issue was discussed at some length in this thread: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=759.0

K

Pietro3000

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Thanks for the welcome, I am hope to learn a lot from you guys!!

Now it come to my attention several implied situations or thoughts that I would like to clarify:

A- Is not the spirit of the rule 11 to speed up the game and avoid any kind of delays but (or) is also to make sure that the proper winning hand be awarded?
B- Once at least one player is all in none of the remaining players at the showdown has the right to fold his hand face down and keep his hold cards in secret, so we should teach the dealers to always force the players to show their cards and in case that they do fold them face down must the dealer show up the card with no need to muck it?

Thank you?
Thank you, Pura Vida

Pietro3000

Tristan

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Well met Pietro3000!

A- Is not the spirit of the rule 11 to speed up the game and avoid any kind of delays but (or) is also to make sure that the proper winning hand be awarded?

Mostly to prevent collusion and make sure the proper hand wins.  Speeding it up is just a positive side effect.

B- Once at least one player is all in none of the remaining players at the showdown has the right to fold his hand face down and keep his hold cards in secret, so we should teach the dealers to always force the players to show their cards and in case that they do fold them face down must the dealer show up the card with no need to muck it

Correct, the dealer should protect the muck so that no player purposely tries to throw it in there without showing.  All of them need to be shown.
Tristan
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K-Lo

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^^ +1. :)

Nick C

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Welcome Pietro3000,

 I agree with K-Lo and Tristan. The problems are created when players refuse to turn over their cards, or turn their cards before they should. All-in players MUST show their cards but, they must wait for the pot they are competing for to be decided.