Author Topic: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors  (Read 25441 times)

MikeB

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Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« on: March 16, 2013, 09:27:33 AM »
The TDA received the following inquiry from a TD planning to work an upcoming tournament. The discussion will undoubtedly help others.

Message Body:
I am acting as TD for an upcoming tournament and I want to be sure of the misdealing rules on the flop, turn and river. Could you please tell what the procedure is for the following circumstances.

1. The dealer burns and turns the flop cards (or the turn or river card) before the previous rounds betting is complete.

2. the dealer fails to turn over a burn card before the flop (or turn or river) cards are dealt and the error is spotted before action is taken.

3. same as Q2 but the error is noticed after action has been taken.

4. What is the definition of action for Q3, ie is a fold action or just a bet?

5. The dealer burns two or more cards. Again the error is noticed either before or after action has occurred.

Many thanks,
Name withheld.

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2013, 05:29:26 PM »
I will attempt to answer the questions, as I understand them. #1 I believe you are looking for an answer relating to premature dealing of the flop, turn or river before the action is complete on the "current " betting round. If that occurs; the prematurely dealt board cards must be handled in the following manner: The flop will require the cards be reshuffled along with the deck stub, (no muck) and a new flop will be used. However, this is the only method I've ever used. It is important to note that the new flop will be dealt even if the skipped player (or player's) decide to fold.
 The premature turn card could be handled in a few different ways. Begin by explaining to the player's that the (premature turn) card will not remain, whether the skipped player calls or folds. The method I prefer is: replace the turn by: first) setting the exposed turn card off to the side (for a possible reshuffle) burn again and replace the turn with the proper river card. If action continues to the river, reshuffle the exposed turn that was set aside and, reshuffle the card with the remaining stub only (no muck), and without a burn, place the new river card on the table.

 #2 is a bit confusing, also. I don't think the question is worded properly; "the dealer fails to turn over a burn card ??? I will assume we are looking for an answer if the dealer fails to burn a card. If noticed before action is taken, I would follow the above procedure, that is: Noticed before action; reshuffle the deck stub along with the incorrect flop.

 After substantial action, the cards remain.

Question #4. I will give the TDA ruling a check is action...so if one player bets, and the next player calls, or raises or folds...that's action.
If a player checks, and the next player bets...that's action. Finally; any 3 actions...even 3 checks (post flop, of course).

Finally, the TDA does not cover this particular situation. TDA #33 covers a Four Card Flop but not multiple burns. IMO, the best solution is to always try to assure that the proper cards will always be the community cards. If substantial action occurs, the hand should play out.

Hope this makes sense.

K-Lo

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2013, 05:43:03 PM »
The general principle is to try to preserve as much of the original board as possible, where possible, in these situations.  However, if action has occurred based on the wrong board cards, the plays must stand.

I'm sure someone on the Board will step in to correct any errors I may have made below:

Quote
1. The dealer burns and turns the flop cards (or the turn or river card) before the previous rounds betting is complete.

Premature flop:  Complete action, leave existing burn, flop cards get shuffled back into deck, cut, deal new flop without burning.  Continue as normal.

Premature turn:  Complete action, leave existing burns (2), burn and turn new card (what would have been river) in place of existing turn.  Continue action. Old turn card gets shuffled back into deck, cut, deal river without burning.

Premature river:  Complete action, leave existing burns (3), river card gets shuffled back into deck, cut, deal new river without burning.

(Variations:  There are some TDs who take a more strict approach with the premature flop situations, by dealing out what would have been future burns and board cards face down before reshuffling, to preserve those board cards.  For example, before reshuffling flop cards in the deck, one might deal out what would have been the correct second burn, turn, third burn, & river cards face down onto their expected positions on the table, and then shuffle to redeal the flop.  This preserves the correct turn and river cards, which can be flipped up later if necessary. However, this practice is not standard, not great for game security, and under random card theory, probably unnecessary.  Another alternative is to always burn a card whenever one is dealing new flops, turns & rivers, even if it means ending up with 4+ burn cards.  This is better for game security, and I believe is enforced in some EP rule sets - however, this practice has not really caught on on a broader scale. Some also propose to reshuffle the incorrect turn back into the deck without dealing the "proper" river in place of the turn; this also has not been widely followed.)

Quote
2. the dealer fails to turn over a burn card before the flop (or turn or river) cards are dealt and the error is spotted before action is taken.

No burn before flop:  If it is possible to know which card should have been the burn, use that as the burn card, and complete the flop with the next card.  If it is not possible to know which card should have been the burn, scramble the flop cards and choose one to be the first burn card, complete the flop with the next card.  Continue as normal.

(Variations: some TDs will simply apply four-card rule here using the next card from the deck.  However, this means that 1/4 of the time, you will get the same 'incorrect' flop.  But the rule is more straightforward to apply and I think there is some value in keeping less cards exposed.  I have also seen some TDs return the flop cards into the stub and reshuffle, but this seems a bit drastic when we know that at least two of the three flop cards are correct.)

No burn before turn:  Use the turn card as the second burn card, deal new turn, continue as normal.

No burn before river: Use the river card as the third burn card, deal new river, continue as normal.

Quote
3. same as Q2 but the error is noticed after action has been taken.

After the flop:  Complete flop action.  Burn twice (#1, #2).  Deal turn card.  Continue as normal.

After the turn:  Complete turn action. Burn twice (#2, #3). Deal river card.

After the river:  Complete river action with existing river card.  The exception is if both players were all-in before the river, in which case you would correct the error (i.e. use the river card as the third burn card, and deal the proper river).

Quote
4. What is the definition of action for Q3, ie is a fold action or just a bet?

Any action on the board, including check, means that the existing cards must stand.  Does not necessarily have to be "substantial action".  You probably wouldn't run into the issue of whether a fold is action for this purpose, since presumably he'd only be folding when facing a bet.

Variation: Some TDs interpret 'action' as needing to be substantial action.  That is, presumably, "check-check" facing an incorrect board would be ignored, and board cards may still be redealt in those cases.  I personally do not agree with this as it may give the players who haven't acted an unfair advantage over the players who have already checked.

Quote
5. The dealer burns two or more cards. Again the error is noticed either before or after action has occurred.

Two burns before flop:  If it is possible to know which cards should have been the proper burns, use the second burn as a flop card, use the flop card that should have been a burn card as the second burn card, continue action, deal turn card without burning, continue as normal.  If it is not possible to know which cards were the proper burns, take the second burn card and use for the flop, scramble the flop and draw one card to use as the second burn card. Continue action, and then deal turn card without burning, continue as normal.  

(Variations: some TDs will simply apply four-card rule here using the second burn card and the flop.  However, this means that 1/4 of the time, you will get the same 'incorrect' flop. But the rule is more straightforward to apply and I think there is some value in keeping less cards exposed.  I have also seen some TDs return the flop cards and one or both of the burn cards into the stub and reshuffle, but this seems a bit drastic when we know that at least two of the three flop cards are correct.)

Two burns before turn:  Use the burn card that should have been the turn card as the turn card, use the old turn card as the third burn card.  Continue action, deal river card without burning.

Two burns before river: Use the burn card that should have been the river card as the river card, old river card is not used.  Continue action.  
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 07:31:11 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2013, 07:54:49 PM »
Ken,

 I know we've covered this on other threads and I think we agree on most, however, what do you mean by: Any action on the board, including check, means that the existing cards must stand. Does not necessarily have to be "substantial action" ???

 I also like to instruct the dealers not to shuffle until the betting round is complete; there may not be a need to do anything. 

 I am also against some variations that you mentioned.

 As anyone can see, there are several very different choices you can apply. Of course, better trained dealers is the best solution ;D

K-Lo

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2013, 08:11:18 PM »
I know we've covered this on other threads and I think we agree on most, however, what do you mean by: Any action on the board, including check, means that the existing cards must stand. Does not necessarily have to be "substantial action" ???

Strictly speaking, most of the rules in this area say that board cards must stand once "action" has been taken on them.  Of course if substantial action has occurred, this is a no brainer.  But what if there has been a bet, and then the mistake is discovered?  Technically there has not been "substantial action", because there has only been one action. I think if there has been any bet on the "wrong" flop though, many TDs would still hold (and I think correctly) that the flop stands.

Quote
I also like to instruct the dealers not to shuffle until the betting round is complete; there may not be a need to do anything.  

100% Agreed.  I am outlining what happens after action for the incomplete betting round has been completed.

Quote
I am also against some variations that you mentioned.

I am as well.  I only mention these to highlight how I've seen some other TDs interpret the rules, as existing rule sets are somewhat ambiguous. But I am not saying that the "variations" are optimal.

Quote
As anyone can see, there are several very different choices you can apply. Of course, better trained dealers is the best solution ;D

But ideally, we can standardize one way of doing it so only one choice applies!  
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 08:31:45 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2013, 08:43:51 PM »
Ken,

 I can understand some differences in handling these premature deals, but I'm having a tough time understanding why the action from any player does not warrant a retraction of the board cards.

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2013, 09:36:14 PM »
I think the origin is probably with Robert's Rules... Something to the effect that once action has been taken on a board card, that card must stand.  I don't necessarily think that it is a bad rule.

Suppose three people see the turn.  The flop was Kh 9h 3c.  The action goes check-check-continuation bet-call-call. A heart appears on the turn, and the first player goes all-in.  As the second player ponders his action, the dealer straightens up the burn cards beneath the pot and realizes that there is an extra burn card.  Is it fair that we retract the turn card, and deal a new turn (say a non-heart), after the other players already had the benefit of knowing how the first player would act given the incorrect turn?  It seems really unfair to the first player to allow the turn card to be redealt after he has already acted on it in good faith.  If you are going to allow a retraction at this point, I think you would almost have to consider allowing the first player to have the option of playing out the hand as if all-in, similar to the situation where seventh street gets dealt face up to one player by mistake in Stud games -- I wouldn't mind this, but this option is not currently contemplated in the rules for games like hold'em..
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 10:25:22 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2013, 07:08:31 AM »
Ken,

 One of the problems I've had with "substantial action" is; we've never established whether the dealer should count as one of the persons, along with the players. At the 2011 TDA Summit there were conflicting opinions on substantial action, in fact, the original release from 2011 1.0 was different from the final that was adopted in version 2.0.

 Your example of the dealer discovering an extra burn after the turn card does not change the rule (as I understand it) for action. How do we know that the extra burn was not pre-flop?

 All of these situations are caused by major screw-ups by the dealer. When the floor is called to the table we need to arm them with rules that are clear and simple. Do you believe that there is a separation between action and substantial action? If Roberts Rules wanted us to consider action as a single (in turn) action from the UTG player, why not clarify it? That, IMO, is the problem with many of our rules.

Tristan

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2013, 02:46:30 PM »
I know we've covered this on other threads and I think we agree on most, however, what do you mean by: Any action on the board, including check, means that the existing cards must stand. Does not necessarily have to be "substantial action" ???

Strictly speaking, most of the rules in this area say that board cards must stand once "action" has been taken on them.  Of course if substantial action has occurred, this is a no brainer.  But what if there has been a bet, and then the mistake is discovered?  Technically there has not been "substantial action", because there has only been one action. I think if there has been any bet on the "wrong" flop though, many TDs would still hold (and I think correctly) that the flop stands.

The reason action is different than substantial action at this point is because of the nature of what happens.  Once a card or cards are shown and action takes place, a player gives away a lot of real and/or fake information about their hand.  To retract the card(s), at that point, would just give the other players free information and place the player(s) who acted already at a large disadvantage.
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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2013, 06:51:00 PM »
Tristan,

 The subject is premature dealing. There are a couple very different scenarios that come to mind; the first would be the dealer burning and turning before the betting begins; the next is when a player is skipped and then the dealer burns and turns. I don't understand how any card can play with only the under the gun player acting if a player were skipped on the previous betting round.

 The question I have is: When do you retract the premature card? What happens to the skipped player that didn't call before the dealer burns and turns the next card? This is getting complicated.

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2013, 09:12:32 PM »
Tristan,

 The subject is premature dealing.

I understand the subject.

K-Lo said: "Any action on the board, including check, means that the existing cards must stand.  Does not necessarily have to be "substantial action".  You probably wouldn't run into the issue of whether a fold is action for this purpose, since presumably he'd only be folding when facing a bet."

You said: "Ken,

 I can understand some differences in handling these premature deals, but I'm having a tough time understanding why the action from any player does not warrant a retraction of the board cards."

and,

"Do you believe that there is a separation between action and substantial action?"

That is when I commented to try to clarify why action and substantial action are different at that point.

Once a board card/cards has been lain, and the first person to act has acted on it; that person has given a significant "tell".  To take back a board card back at that point is a very large disadvantage to that player.

The question I have is: When do you retract the premature card?

If any player or the dealer stops the action before a player acts.

What happens to the skipped player that didn't call before the dealer burns and turns the next card?

If no one acted on the premature card?  Nothing, it gets dealt with and the action is backed to the skipped player.

If someone has acted on the premature card after a checked round?  The skipped player just lost their right to act on the previous round.

If someone has acted on the premature card after a round that had betting?  The skipped player has a dead hand.  They had the dealer tapping the table twice, the card coming out, and a player acting before they tried to say anything. 
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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2013, 08:01:55 AM »
^^
This.

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2013, 08:15:35 AM »
Tristan and Ken:

 I don't agree with your answer to my question: "What happens to the skipped player that didn't call before the dealer burns and turns the next card?"

 Your answer: If no one acted on the premature card?  Nothing, it gets dealt with and the action is backed to the skipped player.

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2013, 09:51:46 AM »
What do you disagree with Nick?
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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2013, 12:27:01 PM »
Tristan,

 After the flop, the dealer burns and turns... before any betting commences, the dealer notices that the player on the button failed to call the last bet. Are you saying the board card stays?