Author Topic: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors  (Read 25420 times)

K-Lo

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2013, 04:20:01 AM »
This is the rule amendment that I have proposed:

35.1   Losing the Right to Act
A player whose turn it is to act has an obligation to stop the action without delay if subsequent players act out of turn and the player has been skipped.  If the player fails to call time in these situations either before substantial action has occurred or the next street has been dealt, the player will be deemed to have checked if not facing a bet, or to have folded if facing a bet.


Tristan

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2013, 07:41:43 PM »
+1  ;D
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2013, 08:35:35 PM »
Ken,

 I'd still like to see some reference made about the dealer. My reasoning has to do with TDA # 34: Players must act in turn.

35.1   Losing the Right to Act
A player whose turn it is to act has an obligation to stop the action without delay if subsequent players act out of turn and the player has been skipped. If the dealer fails to correct the out of turn or the out of turn player fails to call time in these situations either before substantial action has occurred or the next street has been dealt, the player will be deemed to have checked if not facing a bet, or to have folded if facing a bet.

 This might support something you said on an earlier reply: "Right now, the rules do not explicitly give the dealer's tap and burn such importance and distinct status.  But I think they should, and I do not think we need to touch the definition of substantial action to make it happen."


 

« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 11:44:58 AM by Nick C »

Tristan

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2013, 08:08:30 PM »
Is it possible to have substantial action happen or for the next street to be dealt if the dealer was aware that a player was skipped?
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2013, 08:34:21 PM »
Tristan,

 I would say yes if the skipped player was not the last to act on that betting round. In other words, IMO it depends on when the player was skipped. Let's say that there are 6 players in a hand and after the flop the first player checks, as does the second and third...for some reason Player four is skipped and the remaining players also check. At this point the dealer, or any player realizes that the four seat player was skipped...I would say, (because there was no wager), the skipped player would be in for the next round because he would have no option to fold or bet anyway!

 The problem is when the last player to act is skipped by the dealer. This is not really covered by substantial action because the dealer made the mistake by prematurely dealing the next board card before the last player acted. This calls for a replacement card for the prematurely dealt card.

 I hope this is clear, because there was confusion at the last Summit when we began discussing skipped players.

 So...I say it depends on whether the skipped player missed a bet in front of him, or he faced a check. Also, I would say that it depends on how many players acted after he was skipped.

 Tristan, I don't know if this is what you're looking for but, it surely brings to light the need for more clarification. Do you agree?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 07:30:57 AM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2013, 11:21:58 AM »
The problem is when the last player to act is skipped by the dealer. This is not really covered by substantial action because the dealer made the mistake by prematurely dealing the next board card before the last player acted. This calls for a replacement card for the prematurely dealt card.

My proposal is to put a greater onus on the skipped player to say something.  Anytime the dealer deals the next board card(s), I am proposing that if the skipped player faced a check, he is deemed to have checked, and if the skipped player faced a bet, his hand is dead.  The reasoning behind this is that if the dealer is following the proper procedure, tapping the table, burning and turning, this should give the player enough time to speak up. I feel that we should minimize the occasions where we redeal board cards, and minimize giving skipped players two chances to draw a favorable board card, when the dealer is following proper procedure.

I admit that this may be a bit harsh if the last player faced a bet and the dealer quickly dealt the next street, but if the player didn't really have a chance to object, and especially if he faced a bet, then we could always apply rule 1, and roll back the action and redeal the street as we currently do it now.

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2013, 11:54:35 AM »
Ken,

 I understand that a certain amount of blame must fall on the skipped player for not speaking up. However, the skipped player was skipped by the player in violation of
TDA #34 by not acting in turn.

 I also don't like the idea of using rule #1 when a dealer burns and turns before the last player acts...there should be no option, the board card can never stay.

 I can see where your proposal would minimize the occasions where we redeal board cards on a checked round, but I don't like the reference of minimizing a skipped player; two chances to draw a favorable board card?

 If a player is skipped on any betting round when facing a bet, (by at least one player) and the dealer taps, burns, and turns, the skipped players hand is dead!
 If a player is skipped on any betting round that was checked to him, and he is not the last to act, and the dealer taps, burns and turns...that player has checked.

 If a player is in the last position and the dealer taps, burns and turns...the board must be re-dealt.

chet

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2013, 01:03:42 PM »
Nick and all:

Nick, I don't like having three choices, two is much better.

So, how about we put the last position skipped player in the group with those facing a bet and rule the hand dead?

So the rule might read:  "Any skipped player, when facing a bet, or in last position,  who does not stop the action before the dealer taps, burns and deals the next board card will be deemed to have a dead hand.  Any skipped player, other than in last position, when facing a check, who does not stop the action before the dealer taps, burns and deals the next board card will be deemed to have checked."

I replaced "turns" with "deals" to remove any implication that this might only apply to 4th street.

Wouldn't this eliminate the need to re-deal the board, thereby removing the possibility of any player having an advantage of seeing more than one card?

The order of the two situations can be reversed if you guys think it would read better.

Chet

K-Lo

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2013, 01:20:25 PM »
Ken,

 I understand that a certain amount of blame must fall on the skipped player for not speaking up. However, the skipped player was skipped by the player in violation of
TDA #34 by not acting in turn.

 I also don't like the idea of using rule #1 when a dealer burns and turns before the last player acts...there should be no option, the board card can never stay.

 I can see where your proposal would minimize the occasions where we redeal board cards on a checked round, but I don't like the reference of minimizing a skipped player; two chances to draw a favorable board card?

 If a player is skipped on any betting round when facing a bet, (by at least one player) and the dealer taps, burns, and turns, the skipped players hand is dead!
 If a player is skipped on any betting round that was checked to him, and he is not the last to act, and the dealer taps, burns and turns...that player has checked.

 If a player is in the last position and the dealer taps, burns and turns...the board must be re-dealt.

I actually could live with this, but I think it is a bit complicated.  I know that the old/current/traditional rules say that the premature board card must always be redealt, but...  I would like to push to modernize this rule to say that the default is NOT to redeal it unless the player who was skipped, regardless of his position, and regardless of whether he was skipped by a subsequent player or a dealer dealing the next street, drew attention to being skipped without delay.  The default should be, IMO, if the dealer goes through the motion of tapping the table... "Here comes the next card... If I've missed you speak up now..." the player who did not act should have a good reason why he didn't stop the action.  The dealer taps the table for a reason... Players should not be given any incentive to ignore it.  

Hey, we have accepted action already, and that is likely to stay... I guess if you can't beat them, join them?? ;)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 01:30:32 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2013, 08:16:24 PM »
What makes you think accepted action is here to stay? You know it is going to be the most talked about rule at the Summit...even if I'm not there!

Chet, you are trying to eliminate the premature deal altogether. Premature dealing is created by a dealer that is not paying attention to his table, if a player catches the mistake before it occurs, that's great...if he doesn't, it's on the dealer!

Ken, what about the player that bets out of turn? or the dealer who doesn't even know who's in, and who isn't? Talk about accepted action???

IMO, we need to count the dealer as one of the persons when calculating significant or substantial action.

I'm afraid that we will come out of the next summit with more controversial rules than we have already. I suggest we fix the current one's that need attention before we create more controversial one's for 2015 ;D

K-Lo

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2013, 06:25:40 AM »
What makes you think accepted action is here to stay? You know it is going to be the most talked about rule at the Summit...even if I'm not there!

Let's just say I have a feeling.  Care to make a bet?  ;-)

chet

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2013, 08:49:06 AM »
Nick:

We would all like to eliminate a premature deal, would we not? 

However, that isn't going to happen in the real world.  What I am trying to do is come up with a simple, easy to understand rule that basically says that the player(s) has/have a responsibility to bring this type of error to the attention of the dealer/table and if they fail to do so that cannot benefit from that error. 

As much as we would all like it to be so, dealers are not infallible and they are going to make one mistake or another from time to time.

My suggestion is an attempt to simplify a possible solution, that is all.

Chet

And by the way, I too expect that Accepted Action is here to stay in one form or another.

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2013, 10:49:25 AM »
Ken and Chet:

 Yeah, I'll bet...I'll bet it is altered in some way. The only time that Accepted Action should be applied is when a player insta-calls. If a player asks how much is required to call a bet and is given the wrong information from the dealer, that player should have the right to reconsider. The responsibility MUST be shared!

 If the rule remains unchanged, it will not be the wish of the majority.

 Both of you have suggested changes on prior posts, and both of you have now decided that you will comply to whatever THEY say. I will not. It's wrong, it's also not in the best interest of the game.

 Chet, when was the last time you raised a player and didn't want him to know how much you raised? When was the last time you raised 300, the opposing player asked how much, and you refused to tell him...did you say "I'm not telling you, are you blind? Count it yourself!"

 

chet

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2013, 11:24:01 AM »
Nick:

Simple answer....... I don't play that way.  Maybe stupid on my part, but if I say raise I put my chips out front in orderly fashion.  If I am asked, I will tell the amount. 

I am gettin older as are you.  I know that it is difficult to see/count the amount of a bet/raise from the 2/3/4 seat if the opposing player is in the 6/7/8 seat.  So if I am asked I respond.  I expect the same if I am the player asking.  If I don't get a response, that player better not ask again, cuz all he/she will get a dead silence.  I will not respond and I will do nothing to help clarify the amount like staking the chips, etc.  In other words, that player can kiss my u know what.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals, Premature Flops, Burn & Board Card Errors
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2013, 02:25:44 PM »
I rest my case!