Author Topic: Flop mucked  (Read 6732 times)

Tristan

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Flop mucked
« on: April 07, 2013, 12:59:36 PM »
Just saw this happen.

Dealer calls floor over.  They had put the 3 cards down for the flop, but had not yet flipped them over.  The chip runner asked them a question...and because the dealer was distracted, they took the three cards and mucked them.  

I think the muck should probably be shuffled in, your thoughts?
Tristan
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K-Lo

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Re: Flop mucked
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2013, 01:10:58 PM »
I would prefer to use the next three cards in the deck as the flop.  Not ideal, but under random card theory, it should cause the least damage.  I suppose you could also burn another card before dealing the new flop, so that the original turn and river will come out on the flop. 

I would not shuffle the muck back in with the deck - I think it is worse if a card that was discarded by some other player suddenly shows up on the board when it would never otherwise have appeared had the dealer error not occurred (e.g. suppose two players threw away Queens pre-flop, the remaining players are all-in with QQ vs KK and now suddenly the player with QQ makes a set after the reshuffle).

Tristan

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Re: Flop mucked
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2013, 01:25:57 PM »
The floor ruled your way, but was not sure about his ruling.

I'm fine with any of the ways to be honest.  I brought up the burn again in order to get the natural turn and river before I saw your post...that is an ok option too.

The thing that keeps binding me up though is:  Take your same example QQ v KK.  What if QQ was on the original flop and mucked?  So now the Qs are drawing virtually dead by a dealer error...never mind the fact that they would have had the probable winner.  Pretty slim chances, but I can't stop thinking about that.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 01:31:51 PM by Tristan »
Tristan
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Tristan

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Re: Flop mucked
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2013, 01:56:49 PM »
I tweeted the question to Matt Savage.  He responded with "@RunAces not sure I understand but shuffle all cards and do not worry about turn and river". 
Tristan
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K-Lo

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Re: Flop mucked
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2013, 03:40:45 PM »
He may be thinking that the dealer put the flop with the stub, not the muck.  Or that the flop was mixed with the muck which was also mixed with the stub.

However, if the stub is intact, I would never allow mucked cards to be reintroduced into play.

With your example about the Q on the original muck, it is possible, but frankly, no one will ever know, and under randomization theory, it could just as well be that the remaining queens were in the stub and had not yet come out.  But if the remaining queens were in someone else's hand(s) that had been discarded, then the queens should have never come out no matter what, and in theory, other players at the table will know this (and you'll never hear the end of it).

Nick C

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Re: Flop mucked
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2013, 04:28:42 PM »
Tristan,

 Your situation is so unique that "one in a million" is probably more times than it actually would occur.

 I have to agree with K-Lo (again) on this one, there is no way to ever use the muck. Whether you decide to burn and use the next three cards, or just carefully scramble the remaining deck stub and continue would be the only options for me... reshuffling the stub is what I'd prefer.

chet

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Re: Flop mucked
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2013, 04:43:57 PM »
Tristan:

I too am unclear as to where the dealer put the "flop" cards, mixed with the pre-flop burn or mixed with the muck.

If mixed with the pre-flop burn, I would be inclined to treat this as a four card flop.  Why?  Because no player knows what the flop cards are, they have not been exposed.  By bringing those together with the burn, shuffling those 4 cards together and having the floor select 1 card to be the burn and the remaining 3 to be the flop, you have ascertained that at least 2 of the cards would have been included on the correct flop.  This, in my opinion, is the best solution in this example. 

If mixed with the cards in the muck, then I think you burn the top card, place the next card on the table, burn the next card, place the next two cards on the table (this ensures that at least two of the flop cards would have been on the board (as the turn and river) and go from there.  This is the only way I can see that you ensure the board cards are as close to what they would have been as possible.

Chet

Tristan

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Re: Flop mucked
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2013, 04:51:30 PM »
The dealer, when turning back around from being interrupted, mistook the three cards that they had put down but not flipped as a mucked hand.  They put them into the muck with the other mucked hands. 

Should never have happened, for sure, and it is rare...but it did happen.
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Flop mucked
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2013, 04:37:02 PM »
I would have the turn and river removed from the deck to keep the the same then shuffle the remaining stub and muck before running a new flop as Matt suggests, it's still random and more secure than using the next 3 cards off the deck.

Stu
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K-Lo

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Re: Flop mucked
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2013, 04:25:16 AM »
I would have the turn and river removed from the deck to keep the the same then shuffle the remaining stub and muck before running a new flop as Matt suggests, it's still random and more secure than using the next 3 cards off the deck.

Stu

Stu - is it still "random" if you are introducing cards that were clearly out of play (they were cards previously mucked by others) back into play?  If your concern is game security, wouldn't it suffice to simply shuffle the remaining stub?  Random card theory suggests that any card that may have come on the (new) board is just as likely to have appeared as any other -- this certainly wouldn't be the case with cards that have been mucked and can be clearly identified by the player who mucked them.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Flop mucked
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2013, 06:28:55 PM »
I would have the turn and river removed from the deck to keep the the same then shuffle the remaining stub and muck before running a new flop as Matt suggests, it's still random and more secure than using the next 3 cards off the deck.

Stu

Stu - is it still "random" if you are introducing cards that were clearly out of play (they were cards previously mucked by others) back into play?  If your concern is game security, wouldn't it suffice to simply shuffle the remaining stub?  Random card theory suggests that any card that may have come on the (new) board is just as likely to have appeared as any other -- this certainly wouldn't be the case with cards that have been mucked and can be clearly identified by the player who mucked them.


Absolutely, but RROP requires that as much of the board be retained as possible, and this includes the cards that were going to be the flop having the opportunity to re-emerge as board cards, so therefore shuffling everything back in is the only way for me.
Stuart Murray
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