Author Topic: PLO - Betting more than the pot  (Read 12276 times)

chet

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2013, 08:57:01 PM »
Nick:

Staying on Limit Poker for the sake of argument:

Are you saying that you think there is a difference between the player who puts too many chips in, compared to the player who puts too few chips in.

I fail to see how exceeding the bet in limit is any more wrong than shorting the limit in limit.

Moving on to no limit or pot limit, isn't the player who says, "Call", and fails to put enough chips in, just as "guilty" as the player who says "Call, and puts too many chips in?  What about the player who says "Raise" and again fails to put the correct amount of chips in?

What isn't "Right" is the fact that the player put the wrong amount into the pot. 

What also isn't "Right" is that none of the other players "spoke up" to correct the error (assuming they didn't).  So who is the most at fault, the player who made (what may have been an honest mistake) the error, the players who failed to notice the error and bring it to the attention of the dealer, or the dealer who failed to notice the error and correct it.

I can certainly see where the concept of "Substantial Action" could apply and I don't see that it makes any difference whether the amount of chips put forward (and in question for this discussion) is less or more than what it should be.  I can also see where the concept of "Accepted Action" could apply and again, I fail to see what difference it makes if the amount of chips is less or more than it should be.

Maybe these last few posts should be moved from the Pot Limit thread to the more general thread on Substantial Action/Accepted Action.  MikeB if you think so, please feel free to do so.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2013, 09:32:34 PM »
Chet betting too much, or too little is wrong in any game. I feel the lesser of the 2 wrongs is betting under the minimum...it causes less damage. How far "over" is too far?

 Accepted Action is a joke.

 All of a sudden you want the dealer, or one of the other players, to bring it to everyone's attention, in pot limit, that the wrong amount is being bet. Yet, when a calling player asks how much the bet is, you want the dealer to sit there like a dummy and say nothing ::)

 Chet, we don't agree on much, do we? I guess you can just chalk this up as another. I have to admit, I welcome the controversy...keeps things interesting, at least for the one tenth of 1% of the members that participate on the Forum.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 04:56:14 AM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2013, 11:19:47 AM »
A quick follow-up poll:

Player A & B are involved in a hand.

Player A bets.  Player B says "all-in" and pushes all of his chips forward.
Dealer steps in and says "you're not all-in" as Player B has more chips than a pot-sized raise.  The dealer counts out the amount of the raise, and pushes the remainder back to B.

Player A announces "well, I raise all-in too" and he pushes his stack forward.  While doing this, he exposes pocket Aces.

Player B says "oh well, I fold then".  Player A indicates that player B was all-in, "so how could he fold?  Even if he didn't actually have enough chips to raise all-in, his intention was clearly to be all-in"...

Force B to call or fold?

chet

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2013, 02:07:32 PM »
K-Lo:  My 2 cents FWIW  --

I don't believe that "All-In" is a valid bet statement in PLO when the player has more chips than are necessary to make the pot size raise.  Therefore, I don't believe that player B can be "forced" to call the last raise by player A.  His intention is beside the point because at that point in the hand he cannot make any action that would result in all his chips going into the pot.  If player B said "All-in" after the last raise by Player A but before the hole cards were exposed, and then after seeing the exposed cards said I fold, could he be forced to call the raise.

As I said FWIW.

Chet

Tristan

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2013, 02:43:38 PM »
The sequence of events, if I am understanding it correctly, is:

Player A bets
Player B attempts to bet all-in
Dealer corrects the action
Player A attempts to bet all-in and flips hand
Player B folds

As the dealer corrected the action before Player A made his all-in attempt, we have to assume that Player B (and the dealer) felt that Player B was only committed for the max raise prior to Player A's action.

So B made a valid fold IMO.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 02:56:17 PM by Tristan »
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Nick C

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2013, 12:44:36 PM »
Player B can not raise all-in if the amount exceeds the allowable limit, (I'm agreeing with Chet). I guess I would compare his action to going all-in for $25 when facing a $10 bet on a $10 betting round, of a limit game. The only raise he could make would be $10 more...not $15.

 I also agree with Tristan that Player B is only responsible for the maximum allowable bet he could have made, and I would allow him to fold after Player A prematurely showed his winning hand.

K-Lo

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2013, 06:26:10 AM »
Agreed with Chet, Tristan, and Nick C.

So a follow-up to the follow-up:

Do you take any action against a player who repeatedly bets "all-in" and pushes all of his chips forward, every time he wishes to raises the "pot", knowing that he will be forced to only put in the amount of the pot every time?  Perhaps he/she thinks it is a legal "angle" to make his hand look stronger than it is, for example. 

In a previous post, I had suggested the possibility of amending the etiquette rule to include repeated instances of "unclear betting" as grounds for a warning/penalty - but in the absence of that, how would you approach this situation?

Tristan

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2013, 08:46:00 AM »
I think the etiquette rule still covers it:  "Examples include, but are not limited to".

I would most likely not say anything the first time it happened (honest mistake?), give them a warning the second time, and then give an orbit for a third incident.
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Nick C

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2013, 09:27:09 AM »
I agree with both opinions. I was wondering how you feel about this being different from the player that insists on betting "pot" in a no limit game? It's kind of the same thing. I remember discussions that we had on prior posts. They're not "proper" wagers but, they do reflect the intent to raise.

 Players should never bet "pot" in limit, and never go all-in (when they're chips exceed the pot size) in PLO.

Tristan

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2013, 09:55:08 AM »
Players should never bet "pot" in limit, and never go all-in (when they're chips exceed the pot size) in PLO.

Agreed  :)
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K-Lo

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2013, 11:03:39 AM »
Both of you agree?  What is this world coming to?   ;)

Nick C

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2013, 01:44:40 PM »
Yeah! Tristan and I agree! What says Ken? ;D

K-Lo

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2013, 06:16:28 PM »
:). Yes I agree too.  Although like I've said in previous threads, ideally I would like to see some provision that explicitly addresses unclear acts of betting that appears to be intentionally deceptive in the etiquette rule (but it's not a high priority).


Tristan

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2013, 09:50:36 AM »
I get what you are saying Ken.  My concern is if we make a defined list and a situation comes up that IS an etiquette violation but it isn't on the list, we would bind our own hands.  Do you think that would be better or worse than leaving a non-specific rule that gives us more leeway in order to decide what actions are bad enough to warrant a penalty?  The way it is worded now, I feel, does give us that leeway.
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Tristan

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Re: PLO - Betting more than the pot
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2013, 09:56:57 AM »
Both of you agree?  What is this world coming to?   ;)

Lol, it isn't the first time Nick and I have agreed.  ;D  But in all reality, what good would a topic debate be without a good sparring partner?  ;)
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