Author Topic: Showing cards after last round of betting etiquette  (Read 3608 times)

W0lfster

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Showing cards after last round of betting etiquette
« on: February 08, 2013, 03:54:29 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRwvkdqJHvQ Please explain what is correct and why?

Thank you. :)

Nick C

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Re: Showing cards after last round of betting etiquette
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2013, 06:08:21 PM »
WOlfster,

 I believe that Phil could toss his hand away and concede but any player at the table has the right to see the hand. It's a cash game so rules are different. The dealer procedure would be to kill Phil's hand by touching it to the muck award the pot to the winner and then expose the mucked hand if requested by another player (not the winner). If Bellande wanted to see Phil's hand, both hands are live and the best hand wins! This is a very common practice when a player attempts to bluff with no chance to win, they muck and the next hand is dealt.

 Does Bellande have to show his hand? I would say only if requested by another player.

 Remember, in cash games, most player's don't care to see the mucked hands...they just want to start the next deal.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Showing cards after last round of betting etiquette
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2013, 11:44:39 AM »
Poker After Dark took the format of a Winner Takes All Tournament the players merely started with T which was the same as the $ entry fee,  I think there was one series produced which was a Cash Game, in this occasion, Phil IMO was incorrect, ettiquette was for Phil to muck his hand so Bellande could win the pot by having the last live hand and then muck behind, so I am with Bellande on this.  What happened finally was correct, as it was a stalemate, Phil must then either muck his hand or show to make it a contested showdown, as he took the last aggressive action on that round.

As for asking to see a hand, that has gone nowadays, I as a TD would not honour any player's request to see a hand unless there was a question of collusion, illicit conduct or an improper starting hand.
Stuart Murray
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Nick C

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Re: Showing cards after last round of betting etiquette
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2013, 12:46:39 PM »
Stuart,

 I have the utmost respect for whatever "house rule" you enforce in your room. However, there is not 1 Rule Book that supports what you say. Robert's Rules, The Las Vegas Hilton Rule Book, Chuck Ferry's Rules of Poker...just to name a few. The Professional Poker Dealer's Handbook and The complete Poker Room (dealer training) both allow player's at the table the right to see a called hand.

 I agree Phil was wrong. However, the proper procedure, as I explained earlier, should have been followed.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Showing cards after last round of betting etiquette
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2013, 06:38:20 AM »
Nick,

You seem to have overlooked the TDA rule, which is naturally what this forum is designed to discuss (as Poker After Dark was Tournament Poker)

14:   Asking to See a Hand.
Except where house policy requires a hand to be shown or provides an express right to see a hand on request, asking to see a hand is a privilege granted at TDs discretion to protect the integrity of the game (suspicion of invalid hand, collusion, etc). This privilege is not to be abused. A player who mucks his hand face down at showdown without fully tabling it loses any rights he may have to ask to see any hand.


The whole concept of me dealing with asking to see a hand as a separate manner is for this very reason, Poker after Dark as a format did not use nor comply with many TDA aspects, and therefore I address that issue from a current perspective of the game complying with TDA ruleset, as Poker After Dark is quite an old series I felt my paragraph opener of "nowadays" sufficed.
Stuart Murray
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South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Nick C

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Re: Showing cards after last round of betting etiquette
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2013, 06:59:52 AM »
Stuart,

 Even the TDA rule addresses the chance that house policy may require a hand to be shown. I've always felt that the integrity of the game is better preserved by insisting that players; not be allowed to "ditch" their hand without showing it.

 I know there are many others that feel the way you do. We will always disagree on this one. My house rules would be different from yours but, we would both be in compliance with the TDA, correct?

 The video in question, (Hellmuth vs Bellande) should have been resolved by the dealer. The proper procedure (once Phil said "you win"), would have been the surrender of his hand. The dealer would ask for Phil's cards to be mucked. Jean Robert Bellande was correct. He was waiting for Phil to surrender his hand because the hand is still live until it is mucked, (TDA # 10 Declarations and # 12 Showdown order). JRB wanted Phil to release his hand after he verbally conceded. He did not want to see Phil's hand because it might have beat him. The proper procedure should always be followed to prevent any "slow roll."

 What about all the activity from the other players? TDA # 51 No Disclosure also applies. In this example, the dealer should have taken Phil's cards, touched them to the muck, and pushed the pot to Jean Robert Bellande. Both hands should have been exposed after the requests from other players.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 07:36:07 AM by Nick C »