Author Topic: accidental muck  (Read 5036 times)

edfrzr

  • TDA Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
accidental muck
« on: January 28, 2013, 04:57:32 PM »
Player 1 bet 25K. It went fold around the board to player 4 who said "All in and laid his his cards down in front of him. The dealer (not in the game) didn't hear him say anything and scooped up his cards into the muck to get ready for the next hand. THe TD on site felt he could not knock player 4 out of the tourney as he felt he did nothing wrong and it was the dealer's fault for not paying attention. THe TD on site knows it is a players responsibility to protect their hand, but felt the dealer didn't give player 4 an opportunity to do that as he was diretly acrooss the table. After some table discussion, it was decided to call the hand dead and replay it. Probably not what the rules state but that is what the TD decided. Given the circumstances, he felt that it was a fair ruling.

Help please.

Keep in mind this player has been warned several times about protecting his cards.

Thanks, 

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
Re: accidental muck
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2013, 05:04:30 PM »
If the TD thought he had to rule off-book for reasons of fairness, then what can you do?  In my view, the player must protect his hand no matter what (except perhaps in the extreme case where I thought the dealer was acting maliciously).  In my view, his hand would be dead, but I would return any portion above 25k to him, if any.

Protect. Your. Hand.  If he has time to lay the cards down in front of him, then he has enough time to keep his hand on those cards to protect them.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 05:05:37 PM by K-Lo »

Tristan

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 453
Re: accidental muck
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2013, 05:25:13 PM »
In my view, his hand would be dead, but I would return any portion above 25k to him, if any.

Protect. Your. Hand.  If he has time to lay the cards down in front of him, then he has enough time to keep his hand on those cards to protect them.

I totally agree with K-Lo.  Like he also mentioned; a TD is entitled to make whatever decision they think is the fairest given the circumstances.

TDA Rule 1.  Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as top priorities in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can on occasion dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over the technical rules. The floorperson’s decision is final.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 06:52:58 PM by Tristan »
Tristan
@TristanWilberg on Twitter

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: accidental muck
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2013, 06:33:07 PM »
edfrzr,
 First of all, I do not put the blame on the dealer. A better practice would be for Player 4 to push his all-in bet bet forward, before laying his unprotected hand on the table. The hand is irretrievably mucked and player 4 should lose his 25000. This is based on the action being heads-up. Didn't we learn anything from Koroknai & Baumann?

Let's not forget: " Keep in mind this player has been warned several times about protecting his cards."
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 06:37:50 PM by Nick C »

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 733
Re: accidental muck
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2013, 09:25:05 AM »
Nick:

Why do you "assume" action is heads-up?  There is nothing in the original post to indicate that.  I don't disagree with your answer, I don't think that being "heads-up" has anything to do with this situation.  The player did not protect his hand, he had been warned several times, his bet is in the pot and his hand is dead as far as I am concerned.  I don't automatically blame the dealer.

Chet

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: accidental muck
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2013, 10:44:25 AM »
Chet,

 I'm not sure you realize it but, you just agreed with me!

 I can only assume that action was heads-up. What he did was bad enough but, to think he would go all-in, expose his hand with other players behind him would be beyond my comprehension!

Tristan

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 453
Re: accidental muck
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2013, 01:13:26 PM »
I don't think he exposed his hand.  Just left in unprotected out in space.
Tristan
@TristanWilberg on Twitter

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: accidental muck
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2013, 03:20:32 PM »
Tristan,

 You are correct about the hand not being exposed, however, there is no mention in our rules, whether the hand is exposed or not.

TDA #48 Accidentally Killed/Fouled Hands
Players must protect their own hands at all times. If a dealer kills a hand by mistake, or a hand is fouled, the player will have no redress and is not entitled to a refund of bets. If the player initiated a bet or raise and hasn't been called, the uncalled bet or raise will be returned to the player.

I would never rule the hand be dealt over again.



chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 733
Re: accidental muck
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2013, 09:29:19 PM »
Nick:  I don't disagree with you all the time, only when you are wrong  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Tristan

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 453
Re: accidental muck
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2013, 09:43:56 AM »
I would never rule the hand be dealt over again.

I don't think anyone here would do that.
Tristan
@TristanWilberg on Twitter