Author Topic: Exposing Hand with action pending  (Read 3111 times)

Georg

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Exposing Hand with action pending
« on: November 20, 2009, 11:43:38 AM »
On the flop Player A bets, Player B calls. Player A thinks that B folds and opens his cards. The way I understand it, is that the hand continues as normal. At the end of the hand player A will get a penalty (verbal warning for first time, or missed hand penalty).
I have heard from some people that A should not be allowed to bet the hand further, but only to check or call. Is that right? Why?

I believe, that A made a mistake and already has a disadvantage because B knows his hand. But why should A not be allowed to bet?

Georg

MikeB

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Re: Exposing Hand with action pending
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2009, 05:30:52 PM »
On the flop Player A bets, Player B calls. Player A thinks that B folds and opens his cards. The way I understand it, is that the hand continues as normal. At the end of the hand player A will get a penalty (verbal warning for first time, or missed hand penalty).
I have heard from some people that A should not be allowed to bet the hand further, but only to check or call. Is that right? Why?

I believe, that A made a mistake and already has a disadvantage because B knows his hand. But why should A not be allowed to bet?

Georg

Georg:

The specific TDA ruling on this situation (Rules 40 & 42) is that A won't have a dead hand as result of the premature card exposure, and that a penalty MAY be assessed. Whether a penalty is assessed I would say generally depends on whether the exposure was deemed to be intentional or unintentional. Since it was unintentional in this case, I personally wouldn't penalize the player for a first offense. As for restricting the exposed hand's right to bet, that's not a solution that is widely accepted, IMO.  The more common solution, I think, is that the player will have to proceed with the handicap of playing with exposed cards. Player B didn't do anything negligent to provoke Player A's exposure, it was just an unintentional error by Player A and he'll have to live with that. But the majority of venues will allow A to bet and raise, as you say he's already punished enough playing with the handicap of exposed cards.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 05:32:10 PM by MikeB »

Georg

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Re: Exposing Hand with action pending
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2009, 12:05:46 AM »
Thank you Mike, I was hoping for this answer  :)

There is an article on thehendonmob.com that I find very interesting. http://www.thehendonmob.com/tournament_director/exposing_cards_in_error.html
In short: On the river Player A has the nuts and bets. Player B raises. Player A thinks he was callled and turns over his cards.

While some rule the hand dead, others rule the hand live and allow him to call. Most issue a penalty even though they believe it was exposed unintentionally. The really interesting thing is that nobody allows him to raise even though he has the nuts.

I do not know how old this article is, but it was an EPT event and the TDA rules have been known at the time.

Georg

MikeB

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Re: Exposing Hand with action pending
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2009, 12:42:59 AM »
Hi Georg:

The whole Hendon Mob series "You are the Tournament Director" (link here: http://www.thehendonmob.com/tournament_director/articles/introduction.html ) is excellent. In fact they are up to 3 in the series now, see index here:

http://www.thehendonmob.com/articles.html

You can see by reading the various scenarios that while there is a great deal of increasing uniformity in rulings, there still are a fair number of disagreements, and a number of situations just can't be 100% standardized and depend on the best judgement of the TD at the time, like a judge in any other court.

That particular article you mention is nearly 5 years old and we definitely have more consensus now about card exposure in a tournament than we had then. As you can see, then the field was split 2 to allow a call with a penalty to follow, 2 a call with no penalty, and 2 ruled the exposed hand dead...

But note also that this was on the river and the nuts were already revealed, a raise wouldn't serve any purpose here, it's obviously not going to be called unless the other player also has A-K. I think you'd get different answers if the example had happened earlier in the hand when there were still board cards to come and/or if he wasn't showing an unbeatable hand...

Which brings us back to what we can now say with 100% certainty based on the current state of the rules: exposed cards aren't dead in a tournament, and a penalty may be assessed.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 12:00:30 PM by MikeB »

pokerfish

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Re: Exposing Hand with action pending
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 10:03:59 PM »
FWIW,
I would never disallow aggressive action on the part of the player who had exposed his hand. He, as you mentioned, already is playing at a severe disadvantage. Having shown his hand and facing a penalty at the completion, he has and will already pay the price. If he has the nuts, he is still allowed to raise, perhaps the other player doesn't know the rules, misread the hand, etc.
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LeScribe

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Re: Exposing Hand with action pending
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009, 04:26:31 AM »
My way to judge this kind of behaviour is different according to the player (novice or advanced) and/or the repetition of the fact.

If the player is novice, I will give him a warning, explaining him the rule.

If I know (I feel) the player is an advanced/expert, I will still give a warning the first time this occurs, but I will really insist on the fact that the next time, I will give him a round of missed hands.

(And after all, it can still be interesting for him to lose an orbit of cards but win that very special hand, no ?  8) )



But in no case I will declare the hand dead...
Bruno
Every player wins at the end of any hand : some win money, other win experience...

Georg

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Re: Exposing Hand with action pending
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2009, 12:42:20 PM »
What do we do, if the player opens his hand because another player covers his own hand (even though his cards should be visible at all times).

Georg