Author Topic: "Acting out of turn" question...Thoughts?  (Read 3076 times)

pbrannon

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"Acting out of turn" question...Thoughts?
« on: February 10, 2010, 06:14:26 AM »
After the flop, 3 players.

Player A checks.
Player B Bets.
Player C goes way over the top all in.

Before player A can make his decision, Player B says "I fold", and is about to throw his cards in when we all say "whoa! it's not your turn".


Question 1: Are his cards dead, because he verbalized it, no matter what Player A does?

Or, if his hand is not automatically dead,
Question 2: If player A called, then could Player B then call/raise as well?

If Q2 is true, and Player B does call/raise, it was obviously an angle shot. What kind of penalty would you assess?

Stuart Murray

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Re: "Acting out of turn" question...Thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2010, 07:42:55 AM »
pbrannon,

rule 29 of the TDA rules states the following

29.   Verbal Declarations / Acting in Turn
Verbal declarations in turn are binding.  Players are required to act in turn.  Action out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed.  A check, call or fold is not considered action changing.

Robert's Rules of poker are very similar saying:

9.  A verbal statement in turn denotes your action, is binding, and takes precedence over a differing physical action.

11. Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. A player who has called out of turn may not change his wager to a raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn is binding unless the action to that player is subsequently changed by a bet or raise. If there is an intervening call, an action may be ruled binding.

By both books, you 'could' allow the verbal fold to be retracted if the action subsequently changes after the all-in (eg the other player pushes all-in for a larger amount, If player 1 calls or folds the verbal action of player 2 stands also.

So to directly reply to each question:
Q1 - Not automatically it depends if the actions changes (By the book) but he has verbally announced fold so I don't think I'd be letting him play on in any circumstance.
Q2 - If player A called the action has not changed so his verbal out of turn announcement is binding.
You should be looking at a warning/penalty in this instance for action out of turn.

I don't think you will find a TD on here who would be happy allowing player 2 to retract his "I Fold" statement and rule his cards live again as it can be treated as a rule 44 breach:

44.   Etiquette Violations
Repeated etiquette violations will result in penalties. Examples include, but are not limited to, unnecessarily touching other players’ cards or chips, delay of the game, repeatedly acting out of turn or excessive chatter.

IMO opinion his hand is dead although he has technically folded out of turn, and I would normally treat this as an etiquette violation with a penalty which suits the nature of the offence and also consideration given to the history of the player.  If you feel it was an angle shoot you could jump up to a 2 or 4 round sit out but if you feel it was just a simple mistake, and it's the players first offence a verbal warning would normally be apt to suffice.  If you feel the hand was damaged by the fold out of turn but believe it to be a genuine error by the player you could consider a 1 or 2 round sit out.

What is important to remember is that there are no hard and fast rules for which penalty to give for rule violations, each case must be weighed up by it's own merits, if you have been to that player before for other matters naturally you are going to increase the penalty you are giving that player, whereas if the player is new and/or inexperienced you may wish to cut him a little slack and a detailed explanation with a warning may suffice in that instance.

Best Regards
Stuart

Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

pbrannon

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Re: "Acting out of turn" question...Thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2010, 09:54:35 AM »
Stuart:

Thanks for your detailed response. We don't usually have many situations come up in our tournaments, but I am glad to know how to handle this in the future.

Paul