Author Topic: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations  (Read 23753 times)

Nick C

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2015, 12:30:42 PM »
Luca P.

 Thanks for your reply. I'm not using the same formula as you, but we do agree, correct?

Brian Vickers

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2015, 03:29:31 PM »
I proceed with logic:
we are assuming that, to caculate the pot raise, we must sum the pot (all the chips behind you) and 2x last biggest bet/raise.
Once you make an aggressive action or a call, your chips belong to the pot, don't they?
So on 200/400, I'm assuming that 200 and 400 are bets that no longer belong to the players, making the pot 600, so to raise I must add additional 2x400, making it 1400...

Luca, regardless of any formula for calculating pot size, the actual method is that you match the bet you are facing and then raise everything that is now in the middle.  If it's 200-400, you call 200 first leaving 800 in the middle, you then raise 800 on top for a total of 1200.  I am 1 million % sure.

When using the "3x plus the trail" to get to the total bet, you always take back anything you have already put out first before using the formula.  So after announcing "pot" the SB takes back his 200, he's facing a bet of 400 so 3x 400 = 1200 plus everything else which is $0 (as he's taken the 200 back to his stack) either way gets you to 1200 total. 

These examples were both from the previous questions that pertained to heads up play.

K-Lo

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2015, 01:20:43 PM »
FWIW, I concur with Brian.

Nick C

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2015, 09:48:10 PM »
Brian,
 I could understand your formula for heads up, I don't agree but I get it. I am having a problem with  "you always take back anything you have already put out first before using the formula."

 I will give an example and you can tell me if your statement would still apply. 200/400 PLO Six handed...on the turn, First bet 400, next four players call, Player 6 raises to 800...back to the initial bettor who wants to bet "pot," are you telling me his initial 400 is retracted before calculating the bet?

Alessandro 'Maverick' Galietta

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2015, 04:51:38 AM »
I will give an example and you can tell me if your statement would still apply. 200/400 PLO Six handed...on the turn, First bet 400, next four players call, Player 6 raises to 800...back to the initial bettor who wants to bet "pot," are you telling me his initial 400 is retracted before calculating the bet?

in my opinion, that is the same of bryan, as u can read in my first post, 4000 + pot before turn

Ignoring the rule of fast calculation that is only a consequence, the question that we have to solve is in the general calculation.
When we calculate the amount of the pot we sum our call to the previous bets. I think .. why our call is to be considered greater that it really is?

previous example, pot is (i don't count the amount of pot before turn only for semplicity):
800 call seat 1 +         ***
800 raise seat 6 +
400 call seat 5 +
400 call seat 4 +
400 call seat 3 +
400 call seat 2 =
3200

So seat 1 can raise 800+3200 = 4000

*** I don't like to consider that the seat 1 has 400 in pot and then he has to add 800 more

Nick C

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2015, 06:59:26 AM »
 We all know that the UTG position, pre-flop, is allowed the pot raise sum to 3.5 times the BB...this includes the SB. So, the question is: If action returns to the SB, do we count the "incomplete" blind when calculating the allowable amount or do we remove it from the "string"?

 200/400 three players: UTG pot bet = 3 X 400 BB + 200 SB = 1400 total

 200/400 heads-up SB pot bet 1200 or 1400? Is it as simple as 3 X 400? Or do we include the SB?

Luca P.

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2015, 11:37:56 AM »
Ok guys so, PL Omaha 5 handed, blinds 50-100 postflop (pot = 600)
Player 1 bet 150
Player 2 call 150
Player 3 raise 350
Player 4 fold
Player 5 fold
-> Player 1 raise pot: 1800 (first calls 200, then add all the chips in the middle 600+350+150+350)
Right?
If it's right, then we can say that
"In PL games, when a player announces "pot" and has already acted putting chips in front of him (call,raise,bet are valid actions), he must not consider his chips, and put a total (not raise up to) of three times the largest bet in that round plus the trail and the pot. His previous chips put in the pot must not be considered when calculating "pot raise""
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 11:47:11 AM by Luca P. »
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Nick C

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2015, 09:10:16 PM »
Luca P,

 I'd hate to see you change your rules until this is sorted out. When you post a blind, it is part of the pot and therefore, part of the "trail"...3 times the bet you face plus the trail plus the pot...that's the formula and I'm sticking to it.

Luca P.

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2015, 01:22:15 AM »
Luca P,

 I'd hate to see you change your rules until this is sorted out. When you post a blind, it is part of the pot and therefore, part of the "trail"...3 times the bet you face plus the trail plus the pot...that's the formula and I'm sticking to it.
No no I'm trying to understand, that's all.
I still consider the chips of the SB/BB and of a call/bet/raise part of the trail, but if it's not correct, then I'll apply the new way of calculating the pot
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Nick C

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2015, 06:56:02 AM »
LucaP,

 I'm with you on this one. We've been using the same formula for at least three years without any problems. Why complicate the procedure more than we need to. We've heard from Alessandro, K-Lo, Tristan and Brian...that's it. Apparently getting the bets correct is less important than adjusting the ring-tones on cell phones!

 I say that the blinds are part of the "trail." They can not be retracted unless that player is completing a bet or raise! Many cash games even allow the UTG raise to be 4 times the BB...they "assume" that the SB already called the BB!

 I suggest that you do it the way you always have...if your players are content with your "formula" (and more importantly), they can figure it out without a calculator, ;) don't change what works for you.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 06:58:34 AM by Nick C »

Alessandro 'Maverick' Galietta

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2015, 10:24:55 AM »
I say that the blinds are part of the "trail." They can not be retracted unless that player is completing a bet or raise! Many cash games even allow the UTG raise to be 4 times the BB...they "assume" that the SB already called the BB!

In fact the situation is if I want to raise pot having already placed a bet. Do I have to consider my previous bet and my new raise as two different or the previous bet as part of the new raise?

I think it's important to make it clear, then every rule someone may be less convinced :)

Nick C

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2015, 10:54:10 AM »
Maverick,

 Let's see if this helps: Three players Blinds 50/100 UTG calls the 100 BB...SB wants to raise "pot"

 Using the formula: 3X the bet you are facing (100)= 300+100 BB + Your SB 50= 450

 Or

 Using the formula without counting your SB it's 400.

 I prefer using the SB as part of the "trail" because it is already a part of the pot that can never be retracted.

 I look at the SB the same as I would if in for a partial bet on a later betting round. Example: You're in for a bet, another player raises, are you going to count your initial bet from this round...or subtract it? That's what we're debating and I don't like the idea of making another change to a very simple solution to arguably, the most complex betting of any poker game in existence...Pot Limit!

Brian Vickers

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2015, 02:17:43 PM »
Maverick,

 Let's see if this helps: Three players Blinds 50/100 UTG calls the 100 BB...SB wants to raise "pot"

 Using the formula: 3X the bet you are facing (100)= 300+100 BB + Your SB 50= 450

 Or

 Using the formula without counting your SB it's 400.

 I prefer using the SB as part of the "trail" because it is already a part of the pot that can never be retracted.

 I look at the SB the same as I would if in for a partial bet on a later betting round. Example: You're in for a bet, another player raises, are you going to count your initial bet from this round...or subtract it? That's what we're debating and I don't like the idea of making another change to a very simple solution to arguably, the most complex betting of any poker game in existence...Pot Limit!

The formula gets you to your total bet, you can't add the 50 because it's part of your stack and you are getting to the total amount you owe.  Do it without the shortcut:
call the 50 and raise 300 more = 400 total bet. This is fact, not opinion, frankly I'm shocked that the basics of pot limit could take up two pages on this board.

Nick C

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2015, 03:33:11 PM »
Brian,

 We're having the same discussion. The BOD's are too busy for us so...you can continue with your method, and I'll continue with mine. ;)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 07:35:28 PM by Nick C »

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Re: Pot Limit Omaha: how to speed up calculations
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2016, 04:55:19 AM »
50: Pot Size & Pot-Limit Bets
B: Pre-flop a short all-in blind will not affect calculation of the maximum pot limit bet. Post-flop, bets are based on actual pot size.
Do I understand correctly?


PLO 100/200

SB-100
BB-150 All-in
UTG Raise Pot

calc 1: 2 x Call (200) + 150 + 100 = 650 (real calc.)
or
calc 2: 2 x Call (200) + 200 + 100 = 700 (calc where short BB not affect)

Action goes back to SB who makes a CALL.

Q. is: How much is a Pot on the flop?

a) 2 x 650 + 150 = 1450 (real pot)
b) 2 x 700 + 150 = 1550 (pot where short BB was not affect)
or
c) 2 x 700 + 200 = 1600