Author Topic: Angle Shooting  (Read 7478 times)

bgoods711

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Angle Shooting
« on: September 29, 2012, 11:17:33 PM »
Game is $2-5 NL.
      3 Players to the flop for $75 each.

On the Flop
      Player A checks
      Player B bets $100
      Player C Folds
      Player A Raises to $825 total
      Player B Moves All In for $1,600
      Player A flips his cards face up in front of him (no forward motion) and placed no more chips in the pot.

The dealer thought he said call and burned and turned 4th street, then burned and turned 5th street.

     Player A Had a set of 10's on the flop
     Player B had a flush draw on the flop which he hit on the turn.
     
Once the river was turned and Player A realized that player B hit his flush, Player A spoke up and said he never said "Call", that he was debating on what to do.  He debated this by watching the hand play out as if he called, and only once he realized he lost decided to say he never called.

Regardless of what the dealer did wrong here, what your guys opinion on the proper call to make? And Why?

K-Lo

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 07:23:39 AM »
I know how I would rule this in a tourney (e.g. see this thread: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=678.0) -

It will be interesting to see how the cash game experts would rule here.  If I were to apply a "common sense" approach, I would lean towards ruling that once 5th street was burned and turned, the action has progressed significantly enough that A lost his right to protest.  His proper chance to protest was after 4th street was dealt.  I'd be strongly disinclined to back up the action - this would only serve to encourage everyone to try the angle in order to potentially get two chances at winning the pot.  A's out of at least $825 in my view here, but I will defer to the cash game experts.

Nick C

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 07:38:18 PM »
What a mess. How does the bettor allow the dealer to continue burning and turning without knowing whether Player A has called?

 Cash games are different and it sounds like this one might have to be settled in the parking lot! >:(

 The dealer must have heard Player A say call or he should have attempted to muck Player A's cards.

 Player B must have known that his all-in was called or what would be the reason for placing the turn and river on the table?

 Collecting the money...now that's another story. I actually know of an incident exactly like this that took place in a cash game in a local casino. The player refused to complete his call, was warned that if his bet were not honored he would never be allowed back into the card room. You guessed it...he walked out without putting his ($600) call into the pot and never came back. The worst part is; the winner never got his money.

Tristan

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2012, 10:46:51 AM »
I would make the player call the full bet.  If there is a penalty of any sort given, it should be on the player who committed the foul.  Player A tabled his hand, implying call, which appears to have caused Player B to table theirs.  Player B did nothing wrong and should be entitled to all action.  Player A committed the foul, and as such got penalized by having to pay the full amount.  Had Player A made his boat, you can bet he would have said his intention was to call!

Tristan
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2012, 06:42:31 PM »
This one would be simple for me, as I have a zero exposure rule in cash game poker, expose any part of your hand or gesture/talk about your own hand and it's dead - simple. As he hadn't put his chips in before turning his hand it's dead at my tables - he would of had to move at least his high denoms forward before tabling his hand.

In any other table where the above does not apply, I would try to identify if the player had announced call or not, did the players either side of him hear him announce call? Possibly, if not then I'd rule the hand over for the pre-flop amount - there's no chance in hell I'm backing up the action.

Regards
Stuart
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Nick C

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2012, 07:33:35 PM »
Stuart,

 Did I understand you correctly when you said you would kill the hand? Are you sure you wouldn't rather "eliminate" the dealer? ;) I don't know how you'd kill that hand in a cash game.

 Killing the hand would free the player from his commitment to call, correct? Is that what you are saying?

 I'm having a tough time with some of these answers lately. Can you be more specific?

Stuart Murray

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2012, 11:19:03 AM »
Hi Nick,

Yeh, we have a zero show rule, it really works both ways, a hand is only live when tabled when the dealer requests "any takers" or "any showers" or for example two players go all-in, they must wait for the pot to be sorted though, before tabling, it really works better than allowing players to expose their hand and prevents so many issues, they know if they show before allowed to their hand is dead, and they lose anything they have bet into the pot up until that point, males cash games much faster, smoother and harder to angle in.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
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South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Nick C

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 03:13:18 PM »
Stuart,

 I'll say this, you sure run a tight ship. :) We don't always agree but, I have the utmost respect for you as a national tournament director. Your facebook friends seem to enjoy all of your tournaments and the Nuts Poker League appears to be thriving.

 I realized after my last post that you pass the deal. If you ask me, that makes your job even more challenging. I like your more strict enforcement of the rules. I like the consistency it demands. Keep up the good work.

K-Lo

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 06:29:15 PM »
Stuart,

 I'll say this, you sure run a tight ship. :) We don't always agree but, I have the utmost respect for you as a national tournament director. Your facebook friends seem to enjoy all of your tournaments and the Nuts Poker League appears to be thriving.

 I realized after my last post that you pass the deal. If you ask me, that makes your job even more challenging. I like your more strict enforcement of the rules. I like the consistency it demands. Keep up the good work.

Seconded!  :)

mooredog

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2012, 08:04:12 AM »
Most card rooms allow players to turn their cards up when heads up in a cash game. We discourage it but don't kill a player's hand when it's done. I would ask any players at the table whether they heard the players say "Call" and if not I'd rule premature burning & turning after the flop and bring the turn & river cards back along with the river's burn card. Then I'd have the dealer reshuffle, ask player A whether he wants to call the all in or fold, then (if he calls) continue with the turn card, another burn, then the river, unless he decides to fold. Not the best ruling but given the mess at hand it's about all you can do.

Nick C

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2012, 09:06:13 AM »
hello mooredog,

 I understand, and agree, when you say you allow player's to turn up their cards when action is head to head. However, based on the fact that the dealer burned and turned both the turn and river cards, you have to know that the hand was called, correct? Why would any dealer continue dealing board cards if the only opposing player folded?

 The more I look at this cash game, the more I disagree with any re-deal. The player has no option to refuse to complete his call, or ask for new cards. The only exception would be if Player A was all-in for his $825.

 One other consideration; make sure Player A does not get another invite to your cardroom.

Spence

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2013, 01:25:08 PM »
I don't think we can honestly commit player A to the full amount... He was debating a call when the dealer put out the other cards. Upon realization that he was behind of course he wouldn't call. I think player B should have spoke up and asked it he called.

We don't take a strong enough stance on Premature exposure on cards because that's the way the industry is headed and I am okay with that. I wasn't before but I had to realize you can't fight change. I love Stu's card room rule. That is exactly what I would like to see. I don't like angle shots that come from exposing your hand. Use your mouth or your mind but the cards should stay on the felt til the dealer asks you to open.

In this case we don't know what A's intention was nor can we dictate it after the fact. If he didn't speak up it's simpler to assume it was a fold. If player A hit his hand I would be hard pressed not to give him the pot because B didn't stop the action to clarify if he called either.

If I were A I would feel I hadn't done anything wrong. I am allowed to take a shot by opening my hand. When the dealer starts running the board that isn't my fault.

As B I would assume that a call was made until I don't get sent all the money. When A says "I didn't call" Then the dealer made the mistake and I still collect his $825.

Either way I'm hard pressed to force all of A's money into the pot

Nick C

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2013, 07:46:35 PM »
Spence,

 How can you say you don't know what Player A's intentions were? Did you ever see a dealer burn and turn 2 board cards when a player (Player B), was unopposed? Both the dealer and Player B must have considered A's action as a call. In Stuart's cardroom the exposed hand would have been dead...correct? Why would the dealer continue dealing?

 You don't like angle-shooters yet you are leaving the door wide open for players to either; refuse to put in the raise amount owed (if they lose), or ask for replacement cards, or to call if they win.

 I can agree with Stuart's house rules for self-dealt games, but for everyone else, the way I see it; Player A owes another $775 to Player B.


JasperToo

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 05:54:35 PM »
Our room allows the exposure of cards in a similar situation but then there is an automatic 15 second clock on his decision to call or fold.  The dealers know this and so almost never make the mistake of burning turning, etc.  As soon as the hand is exposed almost everybody yells "15 seconds!".  Of course, that is because the rule has been enforced enough and been around awhile.

I would say that since the player did not say anything once the turn was put out about not calling, that he is tacitly agreeing to the call.  I would make him put the rest of the bet in.  If he had declared "no call" when the burn and turn occurred than we would bring the turn back, let him make his decision and then proceed accordingly.

Spence

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Re: Angle Shooting
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2015, 12:23:26 PM »
Spence,
 How can you say you don't know what Player A's intentions were? Did you ever see a dealer burn and turn 2 board cards when a player (Player B), was unopposed? Both the dealer and Player B must have considered A's action as a call. In Stuart's cardroom the exposed hand would have been dead...correct? Why would the dealer continue dealing?
You don't like angle-shooters yet you are leaving the door wide open for players to either; refuse to put in the raise amount owed (if they lose), or ask for replacement cards, or to call if they win.
 I can agree with Stuart's house rules for self-dealt games, but for everyone else, the way I see it; Player A owes another $775 to Player B.
Nick,
I would rather the hand be called dead on the flop as Stu's house rule dictates than force player A to put more chips in.  I don't want to condone the action but I can only assume the dealer made a mistake and that's why the cards are out there.  I wouldn't want a player penalized for the dealer's mistake.  If you open your hand when facing a bet it is an angle.  This player should get a penalty(if this was a tournament)  My only other suggestion is to run the turn and river again.
Kill the hand or re-run the board rather then let a dealer mistake stand.  Mind you, this is all conjecture based upon player A making an honest mistake.