Author Topic: Odd chip in Hi/Lo Split Games & Razz  (Read 8296 times)

K-Lo

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Odd chip in Hi/Lo Split Games & Razz
« on: September 25, 2012, 04:11:34 PM »
I tweeted about a ruling at the WSOP earlier this year, and thought that this was an 'interesting' discrepancy.

In Stud/8, for example, assume the hi/lo halves of a pot split evenly, but that there is an odd chip between the two low hands.  Who gets it?

Traditionally, many rule books (e.g. RROP) would say that the odd chip (between two low hands) goes to the hand with the lowest card by suit.  The odd chip is awarded in a similar manner in Razz.  In O/8, the odd chip would be given to the first player in line after the button.

However, I note that TDA Rules appear to be silent on this point, at least for Stud/8 and razz (it only mentions "Stud").

What I found interesting is the rule at WSOP:

Awarding Odd Chips: .... In stud-type games, the odd chip will go to the high card by suit.... In Omaha/Stud 8 or Better, the pot will be split down to the lowest denomination chip in play. If an odd chip exists as a result from the first split of a pot, it will be awarded to the high hand. If an additional odd chip results from the split of the low hands, it will be awarded to the Participant in the worse position.

According to the Rule, the odd-chip in Razz would go to the high card (presumably of all 7 cards) by suit since it is a "stud-type" game, which is a bit counter-intuitive but I suppose OK.  For Stud/8, an odd chip between two low hands is to be awarded to the player in "the worse position"... what does that mean in Stud?  Last to act based on the order of actions on 6th street?  "Position" doesn't really make sense for a Stud-type game.

Any appetite for clarifying the TDA rule on this subject?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 10:31:40 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Odd chip in Hi/Lo Split Games & Razz
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2012, 07:54:07 PM »
K-Lo,

 I'll tell you what I would do, but in no way does it mean I know what the "worse?" position would be.  High low split, odd chip to high, if multiple splits for high (with two odd chips) the second would go to the second highest card. The odd chip for low would go to the lowest card by suit.

 Are you sure about the odd chip in razz going to the high card? :-\

K-Lo

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Re: Odd chip in Hi/Lo Split Games & Razz
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2012, 09:45:28 PM »
I don't think it should (odd chip going to high card in Razz at WSOP), but that's exactly what happened at WSOP because of their specific rule that ties are broken by high card by suit in "stud-type" games, interpreted to include Razz. (Link: http://www.pokernews.com/live-reporting/2012-world-series-of-poker/event-18-seven-card-razz/post.204849.htm).

Interestingly enough, Matt Savage just answered someone on Twitter about who gets the odd chip for low in Stud/8, and he replied "high card by suit".  I honestly don't know what the basis for his answer is.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 10:33:43 PM by K-Lo »

K-Lo

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Re: Odd chip in Hi/Lo Split Games & Razz
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2012, 10:30:49 PM »
So digging some more, here are some resources regarding awarding the odd chip for the low hand in Stud/8:

RROP: Section 10 (Seven-Card Stud High-Low) #9:  When there is one odd chip in the high portion of the pot and two or more high hands split all or half the pot, the odd chip goes to the player with the high card by suit. When two or more low hands split half the pot, the odd chip goes to the player with the low card by suit.

IFP Rules of Poker (Odd Chip): ... In high-low split games, the high hand receives the odd chip in a split between the high and the low hands.  The odd chip between tied high hands is awarded as in a high game, and the odd chip between tied low hands is awarded as in a low game. 

Thomas McGee's ROPE also uses similar language.

Chuck Ferry, The Complete Poker Room (7 Card High Low Split): (8 or Better):  ... When splitting pots the odd chip goes to the high hand.  In ties the odd chip goes to the high card for the high hand and low card by suit in low hands.

But:

Hilton Poker Rule Book (Odd Chip) A35:  b. On a sub-division for a direction, the player with the highest-ranking card in his hand by suit gets the odd chip. If more than two players tie, and there is more than one odd chip, no player may receive more than one odd chip. The player with the second-highest card in his hand by suit gets the second chip, etc.

And arguably somewhere in between (e.g. no specific mention of odd chip for the low half of a Stud-type split game):

FIDPA (Odd Chip) 77.2:  In Stud games, when there are two or more hands that have identical values, the 'odd chip' will go to the high card by 'suit ranking.'
 (i) In High-Low split games, the 'odd chip' will be awarded to the high hand, if there are two or more high hands  with identical values, the 'odd chip' will go to the high hand by 'suit ranking.'
In Low games, the 'odd chip' will be awarded to the lowest hand by lowest 'suit ranking.'


Cooke's Rules (Odd Chip) 9.18:  ... the odd chip... will go to the high card by suit in stud games for high and to the low card by suit in stud games for low and to the winner of the high hand in high-low split games.

WSOP (Awarding Odd Chips) 71.: The odd chip(s) will go to the high hand. ... In stud-type games, the odd chip will go to the high card by suit. ... In Omaha/Stud 8 or Better, the pot will be split down to the lowest denomination chip in play. If an odd chip exists as a result from the first split of a pot, it will be awarded to the high hand. If an additional odd chip results from the split of the low hands, it will be awarded to the Participant in the worse position.


Personally, I think "high card by suit for high hands and low card by suit for low hands" in a hi/lo split stud game makes the most sense intuitively.  But perhaps I'm missing something.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 07:28:33 AM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Odd chip in Hi/Lo Split Games & Razz
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2012, 06:48:37 AM »
K-Lo,

 You are not missing anything. What Chuck Ferry says, is good enough for me. As much as I've used the Hilton Poker Rule Book, I am a little confused with the way their ODD CHIP rule is written. As far as the WSOP? That's unclear, also.

 Come on rule-makers, keep it simple...please?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 06:50:50 AM by Nick C »