Author Topic: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers  (Read 5140 times)

Luca P.

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Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« on: September 22, 2012, 03:22:33 AM »
Hi folks, straight to the point:
-------------
SCENARIO 1
on the flop
player A bets 500
player B all-in 700
player C all-in 1000
player D wishes to raise
[QUESTION]: can player D raise and if so, which is the min raise player D can make?
--------------

SCENARIO 2
pre-flop
SB puts 50
BB puts 100
player A raise 250
player B all-in 275
player C all-in 375
player D wishes to raise
[QUESTION]: can player D raise and if so, which is the min raise player D can make?
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 05:33:46 AM »
Hi Linker,

A) yes, he may raise, a minimum of 500 more (the last legal raise) to 1,500 total

B) yes, he may raise, a minimum of 150 more (the last legal raise) to 525 total

I wrote the following piece on short all-ins some time ago:

POKER RULES 101 - SHORT ALL-INS

So many people are easily confused by this, and it's not really a surprise to me, the rules are quite difficult to get your head round, but here goes;  To understand what were discussing we must first goto the actual wording of the rule then I can help you interpret them correctly:
 
TDA RULES:
37:   Raises  A raise must be at least the size of the largest previous bet or raise of the current betting round.  If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he must make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed (see exception for multiple same-denomination chips, Rule 39). In no-limit & pot limit, an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted
FIDPA RULES:
60-4.An “all-in” bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.
ROBERT'S RULES OF POKER RULES:
14-NL-3 All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 300. A player who has already acted and is not facing a fullsize wager may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the minimum bet or less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)
 
So what they are all saying on the subject of a player not putting enought chips in when all-in to be classed as a full raise is "An “all-in” bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted." But what exactly does this all mean?  Two concepts habe to be understood "Action Changing" and "Action Only," what is Action Changing? a bring-in, complete, full bet or a full raise, which changes the amount to play by a legal amount in the betting round. What is Action Only?  A Check, Fold, Pass, Call or an All-In Raise which is not 200% of the previous bet or raise (In No Limit & Pot Limit).  lets look at some real live scenarios first:
 
No Limit Hold'Em Blinds 200/400
Player A moves all-in for 650 total, what are following players options?
Players can either a) fold, b) call the 650 or c) raise, a further 400 to 1050 but why these amounts??
The all-in from player A is Action Only, but has still changed the amount to play to 650, most will readily accept that following players can call the 650, but many don't understand the raise option.  The amount to play has increased to 650 so following players wishing to raise can do so with a full raise + amount to play so in this example 400 (BB) + 250 (All-in) + a full raise (400) = 1,050 total.
 
now that is the easy part, this is where action changing and action only come into play:
 
NLHE Cash Game Blinds £5/£10
 
Player 1 Calls £10 (Action Only)
Player 2 Raises to £20 (Action Changing by £10)
Player 3 Raises All-In to £24 (Action Only to £24)
All other players including blinds fold back to 1
1 Can a) fold b) call £14 more to £24 or c) raise a minimum of £10 to £34 (£10 + £10 + £4 + £10 = £34)
But why can player 1 raise again? It says above "An “all-in” bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted" - But his action has been changed by player 2 by raising to £20 so discounting the £24 all-in of player 3, action has been changed by player 2 to player 1's call.  Now where does this rule apply though?  If player 1 calls the £24 bet, then it applies as player 2 can only call the £4 more or fold as his action has not been changed by anyone, but if player 1 raised, say to £45 then player 2 can do what he wants yet again as the action has once more been changed
 
So with all that in mind let's look at another example from another recent poker tournament:
 
NLHE Blinds 2000/4000/a500
Player 1 Limps for 4,000 (Action Only)
Player 2 Folds (Action Only)
Player 3 Shoves for 7,500 (Action Only)
Folded to Blinds
SB Folds
BB Calls 3,500 more (action only)
Player 1 wants to raise - but he can't as the action has not changed, he can only fold or call the additional 3,500
 
What about when the BB is all-in for less than the BB amount?
Lets say blinds are 2000/4000/a500, BB has 4000 at the start of the hand, so he has 500 for his ante and 3,500 for his BB, players have to call the BB amount not what the player has, so players who wish to call have to call 4,000.  That ones pretty straightforward!
 
So remember anytime someone raises all-in short you must still include that in the total to play but if raising must make it at least a full bet on top of the total required


Regards
Stu
Stuart Murray
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Luca P.

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 06:45:01 AM »
Stuart thank you.
Consider this scenario:

player A BET 1000
player B RAISE 3400
player C ALL IN 4100
player D Raise
which is the min raise possible?
6500?
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Nick C

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2012, 06:58:33 AM »
Linker,
 
 I believe it's to 6500. The biggest raise of 2400+4100=6500. I actually had it wrong on my first reply, so I jumped in and corrected it.

 I agree with Stuart's answers from your first questions. I can also understand confusion created by the last line of the current TDA raise rule #37. We have been discussing possible changes on recent posts.

 I know you are speaking of NL in your examples. Your second example could only be no limit. However, if the game were limit in your first example; Player B's 700 (action only) is less than the 50% required to constitute a raise. Player C's all-in raise to 1000 would be the first raise. Player D's raise to 1500 would be the second raise. Player A would be allowed to raise to 2000, this is the third raise and in most card rooms, would be raise limit on a betting round.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 07:10:53 AM by Nick C »

Luca P.

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2012, 07:08:59 AM »
Linker,
 
 I believe it's to 5800, not to 6500. The biggest raise was 2400, so 2400 over the 3400=5800.


According to scenario 2 that I wrote in the first post, and the answer to scenario 2 Stuart gave me, it must be 6500.
indeed in scenario 2 it was:
SB 50
BB 100
player A raise 250
player B all-in 275
player C all-in 375
player D can min raise to 525 (375+150)
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Nick C

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2012, 07:12:50 AM »
Linker,

 6500 is correct. I went back and tried to fix it before it was read by anyone, but you beat me to it. Sorry if I caused any confusion. :-[ I always did like the raise rules for limit better than no limit.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 07:14:19 AM by Nick C »

Luca P.

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2012, 07:15:19 AM »
Linker,

 6500 is correct. I went back and tried to fix it before it was read by anyone, but you beat me to it. Sorry if I caused any confusion. :-[
Don't worry m8, you did it right cause i backed up and calculated it again :D

So, we can say that a minimum raise after subsequent all-in wagers which don't qualify as full raises must be the sum between the all-in amount and the legit raise that happened before the all-in wager.
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2012, 07:19:38 AM »
"So remember anytime someone raises all-in short you must still include that in the total to play but if raising must make it at least a full bet on top of the total required"

1,000 + 2,400 + 700 + 2,400 = 6,500 minimum
Stuart Murray
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National Tournament Director

K-Lo

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2012, 08:26:04 AM »
Agreed with Stuart and Nick above.

I think the original scenarios are pretty straight forward.  One example of a more tricky scenario would be a variation on Scenario #1:

SCENARIO
on the flop
player A bets 500
player B all-in 800
player C all-in 1200
Action returns to A.
[QUESTION]: can player A raise and if so, which is the min raise player A can make?

Here, each individual raise by B & C is less than the minimum required (500), but clearly A must call 700 (which is greater than 500) when the action comes back around to him so the betting is re-opened to A.  

Where the confusion often lies is whether the min raise player A can make is 1200+500 (based on the largest previous raise) or 1200+700 (based on the amount to call actually faced by A)?  In this example, 1200+500=1700 is correct according to the Rules.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 08:27:16 AM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2012, 10:20:20 AM »
K-Lo,

You're answer is right, and you're also right about the confusion.

 The min raise is 500 more...correct? We are complicating these raise scenarios with our wording. Example from the original post: When BB is 100 and Player A raises 250, to me that can easily confuse someone. A raise of 150 more or; Raise to 250 would be more appropriate.

Luca P.

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2012, 03:29:03 AM »
Agreed with Stuart and Nick above.

I think the original scenarios are pretty straight forward.  One example of a more tricky scenario would be a variation on Scenario #1:

SCENARIO
on the flop
player A bets 500
player B all-in 800
player C all-in 1200
Action returns to A.
[QUESTION]: can player A raise and if so, which is the min raise player A can make?

Techically, A can't reopen because B and C are all-in :D
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Nick C

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2012, 05:38:00 AM »
Linker,

 You are correct, unless there are other players in the hand.

K-Lo

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 08:36:16 AM »
Ha ha.... good point Linker! 

(Let's put a Player D calling in there then.)

MikeB

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2012, 10:08:18 AM »

So, we can say that a minimum raise after subsequent all-in wagers which don't qualify as full raises must be the sum between the all-in amount and the legit raise that happened before the all-in wager.
 Linker: your meaning is correct, the sentence could be clarified as follows:

"...a minimum total raise after a series of all-in wagers which don't individually qualify as full raises (but which collectively do) must be the sum between the current total bet amount (which includes the short all-in wagers) plus the largest legit bet or raise that happened before the series of short all-in wagers. If it was checked to the first short all-in wager then the minimum total raise will be the total of the short all-in series plus a minimum legit raise.... "

Please also note that the term "all-in bet" or "all-in raise" doesn't technically apply to a short all-in. That's why TDA rules use the term "all-in wager" for a short all-in, rather than "bet" or "raise". It is implied in the term bet or raise that the action is full and since a short all-in isn't full the term wager is used instead. It might seem like a distinction without a difference but FWIW that's why.... From memory this distinction was first used in Roberts Rules...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 10:34:37 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Min raise in front of multiple all-in wagers
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2012, 03:22:48 PM »
Mike,

 First of all; Player A can't raise  Player's B and C unless another player is in the hand. Secondly, if you are correct on this one, I'm lost again. I would rule (from your example)

 Player A bets 500 Player B goes all-in for 800 and Player C goes all-in for 1200. You said that the correct min raise would not be 1200+700. Can you explain? This is of course is assuming at least Player D is in the hand.