Author Topic: Last draw in Triple Draw  (Read 5901 times)

Martin L. Waller

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Last draw in Triple Draw
« on: February 03, 2010, 02:07:32 PM »
I've been discussing this with dealers and directors and can't come to an agreement.
It's the last draw in a stud game.
There are four players.
They draw 3,2,3,2.
There are only 6 cards in the stub.
When you reshuffle the muck do you include the discarded cards from the first two players?
I say no because the last two players shouldn't have access to those cards.
What do you say?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 09:08:58 AM by Martin L. Waller »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Last draw in Stud
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2010, 03:47:37 PM »
Martin,

I don't pretend to be very knowledgeable with regard to the technical issues of Stud however, under Robert's Rules of Poker, Game Types, Stud the following is taken:

14. If the dealer burns and deals one or more cards before a round of betting has been completed, the card(s) must be eliminated from play. After the betting for that round is completed, an additional card for each remaining player still active in the hand is also eliminated from play (to later deal the same cards to the players who would have received them without the error). After that round of betting has concluded, the dealer burns a card and play resumes. The removed cards are held off to the side in the event the dealer runs out of cards. If the prematurely dealt card is the final downcard and has been looked at or intermingled with the player's other holecards, the player must keep the card, and on sixth street betting may not bet or raise (because the player now has all seven cards).
15. If there are not enough cards left in the deck for all players, all the cards are dealt except the last card, which is mixed with the burncards (and any cards removed from the deck, as in the previous rule). The dealer then scrambles and cuts these cards, burns again, and delivers the remaining downcards, using the last card if necessary. If there are not as many cards as players remaining without a card, the dealer does not burn, so that each player can receive a fresh card. If the dealer determines that there will not be enough fresh cards for all of the remaining players, then the dealer announces to the table that a common card will be used. The dealer will burn a card and turn one card faceup in the center of the table as a common card that plays in everyone's hand. The player who is now high using the common card initiates the action for the last round.


Based on these rule sets I would interpret you are correct in your reasoning.  Hopefully an experienced Stud TD will chime in soonish.

Best Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

chet

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Re: Last draw in Stud
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2010, 06:13:27 PM »
I am confused.  I have NEVER seen a Stud game where players can receive more than one card at a time.  Is Draw (of some variant) the game being played and if so, what variant?


Martin L. Waller

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Re: Last draw in Triple Draw
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2010, 09:07:58 AM »
SORRY, My Screw up I meant  Triple-Draw.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 12:12:39 PM by Martin L. Waller »

chet

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Re: Last draw in Triple Draw
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2010, 12:20:03 PM »
The following is from the PokerStars Web Page on Triple Draw, specifically the part on "Reshuffling the Deck":

"In draw games, particularly those with multiple draws such as 2-7 Triple Draw and Badugi, it is possible for more cards to be needed than are remaining in the stub (the cards in the deck which have not yet been used). If the original 52-card deck is insufficient for the dealer to distribute the number of cards requested by the active player, the remaining cards in the original stub and all of the cards discarded by players previously (including those discarded by other players on the current drawing round) are shuffled together to make a new stub(emphasis added). Play continues from that point using the new stub. Multiple reshuffles of this nature are possible during a hand, depending on the action.

In games with a single draw, the active player's discards are not used in the reshuffle, so it is impossible for you to receive back a card that you have discarded on the draw. In games with multiple draws, once a reshuffle has occurred, the server will prevent a player from receiving back any specific card they have previously discarded.

Thus, if you throw away the deuce of spades, it is impossible for you to receive the deuce of spades back on a future draw, even if the discards have been reshuffled into a new stub.

Reshuffles are unique to Draw, and do not occur in Stud games. In the event that there are not enough cards left to deal the last card to all remaining players in a seven-card stud game, a community card is used, which is placed face up on the table and is shared by all players."

So we all learn something new today!!

Hope this helps!!

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Last draw in Triple Draw
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2010, 02:42:17 PM »
Hi Martin,

I think you're referencing a ruling that occurred at the SPC.

The ruling is:
Quote
The last card of the deck can never be used. In the event that there are not enough cards to complete the draw, the cards will be dealt down to the last card and then reshuffled with the muck and dealt out in order to complete the draw.

Procedure is to deal to last card, reshuffle the last card with the muck (not the burn cards or discards from that round of the draw), burn a card, and continue the draw.

You should never ever have a chance to receive the card back that any player discarded in that drawing round. Specifically receive the card that you discarded.

The above rule is straight out of the poker room rules that the person who made the ruling helped create. Oddly, they ruled differently  :-\

While I don't discount PokerStars as being a poker authority on some things, I'm more inclined to lean towards established published rules that predate the advent of online poker  8) (did I say that out loud?)
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chet

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Re: Last draw in Triple Draw
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2010, 07:47:40 PM »
WSOPMcGee:

The problem with your response is that Martin has clarified that the game being played is Triple Draw and NOT Stud!!

Your answer is absolutely correct when it comes to Stud Poker, but that is not the game in question.

Chet

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Last draw in Triple Draw
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2010, 08:22:34 PM »
WSOPMcGee:

The problem with your response is that Martin has clarified that the game being played is Triple Draw and NOT Stud!!

Your answer is absolutely correct when it comes to Stud Poker, but that is not the game in question.

Chet

Chet,

I know what game he's talking about. I was there when this decision was made.

My answer is for Draw. Any Draw game.

Furthermore, my answer is directly from the rule book of the sister poker room in question.

Stud is completely different.

In Stud there is no draw.
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chet

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Re: Last draw in Triple Draw
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2010, 08:27:38 PM »
wsopmcgee:

I don't doubt your response, but I don't find anything in Robert's Rules of Poker or Google.   You refer to "established published rules that predate the advent of online poker", I would appreciate very much knowing where these published rules can be found. 

I posted the PokerStars information because I was not able to find anything else.

Thanks in advance,

Chet

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Last draw in Triple Draw
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 07:17:11 AM »
wsopmcgee:

I don't doubt your response, but I don't find anything in Robert's Rules of Poker or Google.   You refer to "established published rules that predate the advent of online poker", I would appreciate very much knowing where these published rules can be found. 

I posted the PokerStars information because I was not able to find anything else.

Thanks in advance,

Chet

Chet,

When I say "established published rules" I'm referring to the rule books that all card rooms are required to have on property for when disputes arise. My jab at Stars is just that, a good ribbing, cause that's what you do to the newbies and Stars is a poker newbie as far as longevity of rules is concerned  ;)  I mean, they still move the button forward in tournament play, allowing players to miss the big blind or both blinds all together.  ;D But I digress.......

 Unfortunately, there is no card room that I know of that has their rules available for public viewing. Because I'm fortunate enough to work in many different establishments across the US I've been able to grab a few copies of some rule books.

This particular form of poker, draw, is one area, as you've discovered, that is very undocumented. It isn't played much anymore, and generally only for very high stakes.
Therefore, I believe that some rooms don't even put any rules into their bylaws about the game because they don't spread that game.

The ruling in question created quite stir among the participants and among the staff. To the point that it almost came to blows between two of the players, very well-known players, as it became a discussion of integrity and ethics. To the point that one player alluded to the point that the other player was a cheat. That's when things really got heated!!


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Martin L. Waller

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Re: Last draw in Triple Draw
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 09:47:51 AM »
Well I'm glad we cleared that up ??? 
Chet quotes PokerStars and it says to include the last discards and McGee sites "live"action.
Since all I deal is live action I'll stick to my original stand.
McGee, thanks for the back-up.
That will be one less floor call.

chet

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Re: Last draw in Triple Draw
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2010, 04:53:36 PM »
wsopmcgee:

I agree with your position on using established house rules.  My concern is that there are a substantial number of TDA members who are NOT associated with formal casinos or cardrooms and do not have access to the expertise necessary to develop such rules.  In the absence of any discussion in Robert's Rules of Poker (or any other 'written' set of poker rules) I went to Google and found the PokerStars information.  I would like to see "The Poker Coach" include this topic in RRoP. 

So, if someone doesn't have access to this expertise, where do they go?

By the way, I did find the following at Tony G's "PokerNews.com":

"What happens when there are not enough cards to complete the draw?


Sometimes, there are not enough cards to complete a drawing round. When this happens, the muck has to be reshuffled and the draw is completed after the reshuffle. The cards that are included in the reshuffle are the mucked cards from all previous drawing rounds and the mucked cards of any player who has gotten all of his replacement cards on the current drawing round.

Going back to our previous example, let's say that Player 1 discards 3 cards, Player 2 discards 2 cards and Player 3 discards 1 card. The dealer then deals Player 1 three cards and Player 2 one card. At this point there are no more cards left in the deck. The mucked cards from any previous betting rounds are now shuffled with the discards from Player 1 only. Player 2's discards are not included in the reshuffle since all of his discards were not replaced. This means that it is impossible for a player to ever get his own discards back on a given round of betting."

I think this more closely resembles the procedure from 'wsopmcgee', but they do not make clear that the last card in the deck is NEVER dealt out.  BTW, I agree that the last card should not be dealt. 

I hope we have covered this to everyone's satisfaction.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Last draw in Triple Draw
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2010, 02:07:40 PM »
Chet,

That is nice example you found. Kudos. [thumbs up]

That officially makes three different ruling possibilities.  ???

Quote
So, if someone doesn't have access to this expertise, where do they go?

I'm currently working a piece that I believe will help a great deal in most of these grey areas. I've gotten approval from "The Coach" to publish, and am awaiting others to confirm.

In the meantime, I'll email Coach and see what he has to add.


I have one minor issue with the example found. While a player may not receive the same card that they just discarded, it is possible to receive a card that another player discarded.
The issue is two fold:

1st) Spirit of the game.

Spirit of the game - On all previous betting rounds players received cards and discarded accordingly KNOWING that their opponents will not have a chance to improve with that card (whatever that card is). The only time they would have a chance at that card is if there were not enough cards to complete the draw. At no other time do they have this opportunity.

2nd) Strategic

Strategy in draw games is completely different from other poker forms. The importance of being able to discard without the opponent seeing what has been discarded is of great importance. Especially knowing that they can not receive that card on that drawing round (though possibly in the last one). Thus discarding a wheel card on the last draw, that may have paired your hand, has great consequence if your opponent now has a chance (however minor) at drawing the discarded wheel card.

Example: Perhaps Player A is holding 7432X and Player B is holding 5432X. It is the last draw and on all previous drawing rounds Player A has drawn a 7. Player A has the distinct knowledge that he has seen and discarded 3 of the four 7's in the deck (he holds one 7 and has discarded two 7's). Player B is a long shot to receive the last 7. But unfortunately for Player A, there is not enough cards left to complete the draw. Player B now has an advantage. Player B now is in good shape to outdraw Player A.

While a very rare occurrence. It does happen.

Player A would appreciate even the smallest bit of protection against this. Giving Player B only two chances at receiving a 7 vs three chances. Thus it is better for Player B not to be able to have a draw at Player A's discard(s) for that round. That's IMO. Let's see what the coach says! :)
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Nick C

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Re: Last draw in Triple Draw
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2010, 08:35:32 AM »
Chet

 I know very little about the draw game in question, but there is much discussion about running out of cards in stud. The community card is the most common in low limit 7-card stud that is played in our area (Seneca Casinos, Buffalo, NY and Niagara Falls area). There is another option that is usually prefered by players when possible. Before dealing the river in stud, the dealer should carefully count the cards (spreading them slightly in your hand) and be sure that you have two more cards than players. This will include the burn and complies with the ruling to never use the last card of the deck. If you do not have enough; example five players and six cards, the dealer may then use the "clean burn cards" and shuffle them into the deck stub. This is done very carefully like a scramble face down as opposed to a standard shuffle. The deck stub will be cut and a burn card will be used and each remaining player will get their river card face down. Most stud players don't like the other option (the community card) because they like to "squeeze" ther own down card. Management likes it because it's faster. A note for dealers: This is why we must never expose any burn cards, especially in stud!

Nick C