Author Topic: Fold or Not! at Showdown  (Read 9670 times)

Steven

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Fold or Not! at Showdown
« on: August 07, 2012, 01:26:42 AM »
Can a player retrieve a "folded" hand before it hits the muck?

Inthis case, the player tossed his hand into the felt face down after the opponent showed her hand.
He then realized that the board would play and retrieved them before the dealer grabbed them.

I seem to remember something similar in a thread a few months ago!

Do his cards play, resulting in a chopped pot since he uses the board too? (He did table his hand after retrieving his cards.)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 09:03:40 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2012, 04:32:24 AM »
Steven,

 The hand is live.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 09:03:56 AM by MikeB »

MikeB

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Re: Fold or Not! at showdown
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2012, 09:03:21 AM »
Steve: I agree with Nick that the cards should be live in the example you describe.

However, this leads to the larger question of whether there is such a thing as "fold" during a showdown. (hence the title clarification of this thread)

What you describe is a "mucking" gesture (throwing cards forward onto the felt). Before the showdown, when action is pending this would be a binding fold... however during showdown Nick and I agree that the cards are retrievable and can be tabled to compete in the showdown.  What if the player instead had said "I fold"... is this binding? Some folks think it should be... i.e. there is such a thing as "fold" at showdown... we need to clarify that IMO.  What if the player had said something less definitive such as "you win" or "your hand is good" or "take it"... is that binding?

IMO it would be a major step forward to clarify whether A) any utterances or gestures of capitulation are binding at showdown OR B) if cards are always live as long as they are 100% identifiable and thus gestures and declarations of capitulation have no meaning at showdown.

None of this is to question that a player in a non-all-in showdown may voluntarily discard his hand face down... and that the dealer should muck the cards... but rather 1) to clarify whether the player can change his mind as long as the cards are 100% identifiable and 2) to clarify whether a verbal declaration of "fold" or other capitulation utterance carries any additional binding significance.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 09:25:17 AM by MikeB »

K-Lo

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2012, 09:50:34 AM »
Nice posts.  Agreed with Mike B and Nick.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2012, 10:55:22 AM »
Agreed with all, the hand is live, there is no such thing as a fold once showdown has been reached.

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Stuart
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Steven

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2012, 05:51:22 PM »
Thanks for the excellent responses! And thanks to the EXCELLENT dealer who handled the situation correctly and allowed the chop! And thanks, Mike, for qualifying the subject title with Showdown!

Your responses triggered a few followups!

1-Thanks Stuart! (And thanks for your Olympics coverage!)  I think that I would qualify your answer by saying you CAN fold at showdown if it's not an all-in situation. In my case the player apparantly had not folded as the player had not declared fold, there was no action pending, and the cards had not hit the muck! However, I think the player is entitled to FOLD (if not all-in) because of the options allowed in Rules 12 and 14 below: (Note: the only verbage that may negate this thought is that Rule 14 specifies that the lass aggressive player MUST show first! - maybe implying that he cannot fold!, but why even have the rule separate from rule 10 if all players mus show! Maybe the rule could use some cleanup!)

12:   Showdown Order
In a non-all-in showdown, at the end of the last round of betting, the player who made the last aggressive action in that betting round must show first. If there was no bet in the last round, the player to the left of the button shows first and so on clockwise. In stud, the player with the high board must show first. In razz, the lowest board shows first.
14:   Asking to See a Hand. Except where house policy requires a hand to be shown or provides an express right to see a hand on request, asking to see a hand is a privilege granted at TDs discretion to protect the integrity of the game (suspicion of invalid hand, collusion, etc). This privilege is not to be abused. A player who mucks his hand face down at showdown without fully tabling it loses any rights he may have to ask t tto see any hand.

2) If the player does not retrieve the cards, I then presume the dealer should kill the hand.

3) If a player does not retrieve the hand and another player requests to see it before the dealer mucks it, and the TD obliges (Rule 14), is the hand still live?  By the way, this could be very relevant in a tournament jackpot situation!

4) In what situation can the dealer retrieve and open up a "mucked" hand (without the player physically turning it over)? I think I had one dealer tell me that he could never turn a player's cards over. I'm thinking he can of course turn it over upon player request when the TD obliges (Rule 14), also in an all-in situation, and maybe in the first situation that I described. However, I tempted to say that the dealer should kill the hand if the cards are face down, not in the muck, and no player asks to see them!

5) Mike mentioned that before the showdown, this would be a binding fold. I think I agree and want to make sure that you agree that the player then cannot retrieve his hand. I know however, that in some cases, players and dealers are lenient with players that fold facing a check, or if in the big blind with no raise, or if in the blind and don't know they're in the blind!


Thanks,
Steven

Nick C

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2012, 08:23:35 PM »
Steven,
 I like your response regarding some possible clean-up for rule #14. I think you can throw in rule #11 while you're at it.

 I'll stick my two cents in here and agree with your dealer when he said; "the dealer must never turn over a players down cards." I'd like to add; unless it is at the explicit request of the owner of the hand, or the floor." There is continued debate as to whether any player at the table should have the right to see a called hand in a showdown situation.

 If a good dealer is allowed to control the game, the correct order of showdown would be performed as follows: Last player to initiate the action (check, bet or raise) on the final betting round will show first. The process goes clockwise one at a time, until the winning hand is the last face-up on the table.

 I look at several scenario's that Mike mentioned and I wonder how much protection should we offer to a player who elects to muck at the showdown? There are many winning hands that are mucked unintentionally, if we insist they all be shown, that problem would disappear, along with chip dumping and other forms of collusion.

 Hey K-Lo, (here I go again) :D Why is it only when any player is all-in, all cards must be tabled?

 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 02:56:25 AM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2012, 07:53:54 AM »
Quote
Hey K-Lo, (here I go again) :D Why is it only when any player is all-in, all cards must be tabled?

Because you haven't yet persuaded everyone that the rule needs to be changed, and that rule will probably be left ultimately unchanged for some time.... since I predict people will be too tired to talk about it by the time we get through Accepted Action at the next Summit!!   ;D ;D

Nick C

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 04:42:54 PM »
K-Lo,

 I promise, if they fix Accepted Action (by elimination) I'll refrain from complaining about any other rules for at least 100 posts! ;D

JasperToo

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2012, 06:44:09 PM »
Lol, Nick! I've got a C-note says you could go for 200 posts!!

K-Lo, what you don't think we'll have the rule all hammered out by the next summit, ready to go??   :D :D

MikeB

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2012, 09:33:11 PM »

Your responses triggered a few followups!

1-Thanks Stuart!...I would qualify your answer by saying you CAN fold at showdown if it's not an all-in situation. In my case the player apparantly had not folded as the player had not declared fold, (does a declaration of fold mean anything at a showdown?... i.e. is it a binding?) there was no action pending, and the cards had not hit the muck! However, I think the player is entitled to FOLD (if not all-in) because of the options allowed in Rules 12 and 14 below: (Note: the only verbage that may negate this thought is that Rule 14 specifies that the lass aggressive player MUST show first! - maybe implying that he cannot fold!, but why even have the rule separate from rule 10 if all players mus show! Maybe the rule could use some cleanup!) TDA Rule 14 clearly acknowledges that a player may muck cards face down at showdown. The showdown order rule 12 is meant to be enforced if players are reluctant to spontaneously table their cards at showdown.

Steven: While a player in a non all-in showdown is entitled to discard his cards face down w/o tabling, the question that's not firmly answered is whether this is a binding "fold" (i.e. the cards are dead as they would be if he made the same discarding gesture with action pending)... or merely a gesture of capitulation that can be retracted if the player changes his mind while the cards are still 100% identifiable. The same question remains as to whether declaring "fold" verbally, or some equivalent is binding at showdown

14: Asking to See a Hand. Except where house policy requires a hand to be shown or provides an express right to see a hand on request, asking to see a hand is a privilege granted at TDs discretion to protect the integrity of the game (suspicion of invalid hand, collusion, etc). This privilege is not to be abused. A player who mucks his hand face down at showdown without fully tabling it loses any rights he may have to ask t tto see any hand.

2) If the player does not retrieve the cards, I then presume the dealer should kill the hand. Definitely. In a non all-in showdown if a player mucks face down, unless house rules provide an express right to see the hand, the muck should be respected and the hand killed. Again the question remains whether the TDA membership can come to a common agreement as to what constitutes a killed, irretrievable hand. Is it a) dead when the player tosses the cards forward; b) dead when the dealer performs a killing ritual such as tapping it to the muck; c) or dead only when it is bured in the muck and no longer identifiable?

3) If a player does not retrieve the hand and another player requests to see it before the dealer mucks it, and the TD obliges (Rule 14), is the hand still live?  While this doesn't formally appear in the TDA Rules, at the 2009 Summit there was general agreement that if the "winning" player to that point asks to see the hand it is live and can win. Another issue worth reviewing at the next Summit to see if some rule or procedural language should be adopted.

4) In what situation can the dealer retrieve and open up a "mucked" hand (without the player physically turning it over)? I think I had one dealer tell me that he could never turn a player's cards over. I'm thinking he can of course turn it over upon player request when the TD obliges (Rule 14), also in an all-in situation.  The TDA rule states that cards will be face up once a player is all in and all betting action is complete. The vastly preferred scenario is that the player table his own cards. But one way or the other they should be turned up prior to running out the remainder of any cards to be dealt and proceeding to reading of hands in the showdown.

5) Mike mentioned that before the showdown, this would be a binding fold. I think I agree and want to make sure that you agree that the player then cannot retrieve his hand. I know however, that in some cases, players and dealers are lenient with players that fold facing a check, or if in the big blind with no raise, or if in the blind and don't know they're in the blind!   This is addressed in TDA Rule 45 "Non Standard Folds". These should be binding folds.

Thanks for raising several important issues on the showdown topic!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 09:39:23 PM by MikeB »

K-Lo

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 04:44:30 AM »
Lol, Nick! I've got a C-note says you could go for 200 posts!!

K-Lo, what you don't think we'll have the rule all hammered out by the next summit, ready to go??   :D :D

Do I hear 300??  300 anyone?   :P

Stuart Murray

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2012, 05:37:59 AM »
Your responses triggered a few followups!


1-Thanks Stuart! (And thanks for your Olympics coverage!)  I think that I would qualify your answer by saying you CAN fold at showdown if it's not an all-in situation. In my case the player apparantly had not folded as the player had not declared fold, there was no action pending, and the cards had not hit the muck! However, I think the player is entitled to FOLD (if not all-in) because of the options allowed in Rules 12 and 14 below: (Note: the only verbage that may negate this thought is that Rule 14 specifies that the lass aggressive player MUST show first! - maybe implying that he cannot fold!, but why even have the rule separate from rule 10 if all players mus show! Maybe the rule could use some cleanup!)

Oh your welcome re London 2012 - just one word on the subject - c'mon team GB ;-))

Just to clarify the "folding at showdown" stance, as Mike has noted already, whilst most houses will allow players to elect to muck their hand at showdown, it is not a fold, players cannot fold or announce fold at showdown, as it is just that a showdown, and betting action has been completed.  Mucking ones cards is tantamount to surrendering claim to the pot, to cite RROP, "(a) You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise."

I have worked with mandatory showdowns on a few occasions and ability to muck, there are merits to both, but the important thing I have learned is announcing "I fold" has no relevance at showdown, all the hands that are still live that reach showdown are live irrelevant of a players announcement and the best hand should always win, once the cards are slid into the muck that is a different story however.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
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K-Lo

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2012, 06:32:27 AM »
Stuart:  If "I fold" has no relevance at showdown (I'm not disagreeing but just would like some clarification on your position): 

If Player A says "I fold" and then throws his cards down in front of him, and then Player B says "good fold" and throws his cards down towards the muck...  assume now that the dealer mucks B's hand but not A's for whatever reason, and A then picks up his cards and tables them, who do you award the pot to?  Does it matter that B acted in response to A's announcement of "fold"?

Stuart Murray

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Re: Fold or Not! at Showdown
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2012, 10:34:04 AM »
I think it was Chet that said the best piece of advice - do not release your cards until the dealer awards the pot to you, the situation you describe is messy and a whole different discussion, but player A has thrown his hand forward which has caused a re-action from player B (he has relinquished his hand) therefore player A has already surrendered his claim to the pot and it can easily be awarded to player B in that circumstance.

To summarise throwing your hand forward face down at showdown is sufficient for me that a player has relinquished claim to the pot, as they are electing their right to muck their hand.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
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National Tournament Director