Author Topic: What constitutes "tabling" for purposes of TDA Rule 15?  (Read 5819 times)

MikeB

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What constitutes "tabling" for purposes of TDA Rule 15?
« on: July 26, 2012, 11:40:20 AM »
Does the term "tabling" need clarification for purposes of Rule 15? See one discussion thread here:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=719.0

The issue of tabling is also found in some comments on this thread:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=724.0

As related issues at showdown (NOT during play of hand, but after all betting action is completed and the hand has progressed to showdown and reading of the cards):

1: Does the statement "I fold" have any meaning at showdown? (i.e. is that hand "folded and dead" or may the player still table it?)
2: Does a gesture of capitulation such as tossing cards forward have any meaning at showdown? (i.e. is that hand "folded and dead" or may the player still table it?)
3: If a player pushes their cards towards the muck face down, may they change their mind and table their cards or are the cards instantly dead as a result of pushing them forward face down at showdown?
3: When are cards technically dead and unable to be retrieved, tabled, and read at showdown?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 12:23:05 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: What constitutes "tabling" for purposes of TDA Rule 15?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 12:36:41 PM »
 If a player, at showdown, in for all bets can not muck his hand, or announces that he is folding, the hand must be tabled. So why not just make it mandatory?
 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 07:08:16 PM by Nick C »

JasperToo

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Re: What constitutes "tabling" for purposes of TDA Rule 15?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 01:34:57 PM »
Nick, I appreciate your view on showing hands at showdown but I don't disagree with it.  As a player, I want to be able to muck a hand even at showdown (all-ins don't count).  But, I understand that some venues are making it mandatory so perhaps you will win out one day! :)

As I understand the current rules, a hand is not officially dead until it is mucked.  By that I mean the dealer reaches out and gets the "folded" hand and shoves it in the pile.  There is still that moment between "folding" and "mucking" that a hand can be tabled.  My belief is that this allows for those odd mistakes in understanding who's turn it is, or that moment in the players head when he realizes he isn't beat.  Making it mandatory, would stop those problems I guess but I still like the ability to fold a hand there.

Since we have rule 34 & 35 I have to go with a verbal declaration of fold at showdown is binding.  So even if they verbally fold and then "table" the hand, it was dead when the word came out of their mouth.  This one is a strong stance and I am not sure most players would really understand it at the moment but that is the way TDA is laid out right now.

Yes, this means that a verbal declaration is STRONGER than the actual action of "folding" (since the cards are not quite dead till they hit the muck).  And this difference can cause some consternation.

Nick C

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Re: What constitutes "tabling" for purposes of TDA Rule 15?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 02:56:13 PM »
JasperToo:

 Unless I'm wrong again, I don't believe rules 34 & 35 pertain to verbal declarations at showdown. Saying your hand is dead does not kill the hand (according to tournament poker rules).

 The only way to guarantee that the best hand gets the pot is if all hands are tabled at showdown.

 In my opinion, If you are all-n, or in for all bets, the hand should be seen by all players. If we allow players to muck at showdown, how are we protecting against collusion, or chip dumping, or even an unintentional fold from a player that misread their hand?

JasperToo

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Re: What constitutes "tabling" for purposes of TDA Rule 15?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2012, 06:46:41 AM »

 Unless I'm wrong again, I don't believe rules 34 & 35 pertain to verbal declarations at showdown. Saying your hand is dead does not kill the hand (according to tournament poker rules).

 

I was pointing out that everywhere else in the rules verbal declarations take precedence and are binding in and out of turn.  Since you can still muck at showdown (TDA 14) then a verbal fold at showdown should be as well.

Help me out, though, what tournament poker rules indicate that "Saying your hand is dead" (or "fold" I presume) does not kill a hand at showdown?  I can't find one in the TDA or RROP. 

Nick C

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Re: What constitutes "tabling" for purposes of TDA Rule 15?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2012, 08:30:32 AM »
Jasper,

 This is from Robert's Rules:DEAD HANDS
 
1. Your hand is declared dead if:
 
(a) You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise.
 
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).

This is for cash games, but it would apply to tournament poker if the dealer did his job properly. That would require the dealer to get the cards from the player that announced he is folding, and mucking the cards before taking action from the next player.

 Likewise, when a player tosses their hand away, in a forward motion, the dealer should kill the hand before moving to the next player. This can get a little tricky if the dealer recognizes that the folding player thinks he has won the pot, but there is another player in the hand. In a case like this, the dealer should offer some protection by keeping the hand from hitting the muck and returning it to the player. IMO, this is in the best interest of the game.

 These actions MUST be taken or, any hand (technically) can be deemed live until it is in the muck. A little complicated but a good dealer eliminates the need to even call for the floor.

 I've considered requesting a slight change in the wording for TDA #34 Verbal BETS in turn are binding would be more appropriate than Verbal declarations.... The word declarations is more suited for TDA #10.

 I hope I'm not drifting too far from your question but, like so many other situations, nothing has a simple solution without explanation.


 POKER ETIQUETTE  (Robert's Rules)
 
The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator.
 
Reading a hand for another player at the showdown before it has been placed faceup on the table.

IMO, there are two ways to comply: face-up and on the table!



« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 08:50:52 AM by Nick C »

Ricky9

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Re: What constitutes "tabling" for purposes of TDA Rule 15?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2012, 07:02:20 AM »
Caro and Cooke got it right IMO, no need for clarification on tabled hands as it is self explanatory otherwise they would be called aired hands?

READING HANDS.

At showdown the dealer shall read all hands where cards are exposed and laid on the table face-up. However the dealer shall never ask a player to turn up all his cards and shall only read cards that are shown. The dealer shall not read hands that are exposed but not laid on the table. The hand is to be read according to the exposed cards only. If it appears that a hand which does not have all cards exposed is entitled to the pot, the dealer shall advise that player that he must see a complete hand to award the pot. The winning hand must have all cards exposed and accounted for. If a player who loses the pot exposes only part of his hand, the dealer shall kill it without exposing the rest of the hand.

It would be fun to see 10 players waving there hands about and then throwing them in the muck face down, all claiming the pot.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 07:03:34 AM by Ricky9 »

Nick C

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Re: What constitutes "tabling" for purposes of TDA Rule 15?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2012, 10:59:10 AM »
Ricky9,

 Perfect!