POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Suggestions for new TDA rules and amendments to existing rules READ-ONLY ARCHIVES Pre-2013 Summit
What constitutes "tabling" for purposes of TDA Rule 15?
MikeB:
Does the term "tabling" need clarification for purposes of Rule 15? See one discussion thread here:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=719.0
The issue of tabling is also found in some comments on this thread:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=724.0
As related issues at showdown (NOT during play of hand, but after all betting action is completed and the hand has progressed to showdown and reading of the cards):
1: Does the statement "I fold" have any meaning at showdown? (i.e. is that hand "folded and dead" or may the player still table it?)
2: Does a gesture of capitulation such as tossing cards forward have any meaning at showdown? (i.e. is that hand "folded and dead" or may the player still table it?)
3: If a player pushes their cards towards the muck face down, may they change their mind and table their cards or are the cards instantly dead as a result of pushing them forward face down at showdown?
3: When are cards technically dead and unable to be retrieved, tabled, and read at showdown?
Nick C:
If a player, at showdown, in for all bets can not muck his hand, or announces that he is folding, the hand must be tabled. So why not just make it mandatory?
JasperToo:
Nick, I appreciate your view on showing hands at showdown but I don't disagree with it. As a player, I want to be able to muck a hand even at showdown (all-ins don't count). But, I understand that some venues are making it mandatory so perhaps you will win out one day! :)
As I understand the current rules, a hand is not officially dead until it is mucked. By that I mean the dealer reaches out and gets the "folded" hand and shoves it in the pile. There is still that moment between "folding" and "mucking" that a hand can be tabled. My belief is that this allows for those odd mistakes in understanding who's turn it is, or that moment in the players head when he realizes he isn't beat. Making it mandatory, would stop those problems I guess but I still like the ability to fold a hand there.
Since we have rule 34 & 35 I have to go with a verbal declaration of fold at showdown is binding. So even if they verbally fold and then "table" the hand, it was dead when the word came out of their mouth. This one is a strong stance and I am not sure most players would really understand it at the moment but that is the way TDA is laid out right now.
Yes, this means that a verbal declaration is STRONGER than the actual action of "folding" (since the cards are not quite dead till they hit the muck). And this difference can cause some consternation.
Nick C:
JasperToo:
Unless I'm wrong again, I don't believe rules 34 & 35 pertain to verbal declarations at showdown. Saying your hand is dead does not kill the hand (according to tournament poker rules).
The only way to guarantee that the best hand gets the pot is if all hands are tabled at showdown.
In my opinion, If you are all-n, or in for all bets, the hand should be seen by all players. If we allow players to muck at showdown, how are we protecting against collusion, or chip dumping, or even an unintentional fold from a player that misread their hand?
JasperToo:
--- Quote from: Nick C on July 26, 2012, 02:56:13 PM ---
Unless I'm wrong again, I don't believe rules 34 & 35 pertain to verbal declarations at showdown. Saying your hand is dead does not kill the hand (according to tournament poker rules).
--- End quote ---
I was pointing out that everywhere else in the rules verbal declarations take precedence and are binding in and out of turn. Since you can still muck at showdown (TDA 14) then a verbal fold at showdown should be as well.
Help me out, though, what tournament poker rules indicate that "Saying your hand is dead" (or "fold" I presume) does not kill a hand at showdown? I can't find one in the TDA or RROP.
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