Author Topic: Dead hand or what?  (Read 9698 times)

TomKarr

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 16
Dead hand or what?
« on: July 19, 2012, 11:32:36 AM »
Hello, what happens when a dealer mucks a hand that was showed normaly in a showdown?
Situation: They are 3 players in the game, on the flop the 1st guy bets, 2nd raises, 3th goes all in and has most chips from all three of them. 1st guy folds and the 2nd one calls all in and does showdown, but the dealer makes a mistake and didnt realize that the 2nd guy went all in and mucks his tablet hand. What to do?

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2012, 11:42:27 AM »
Sorry Tom... I'm confused by your reference to the 2nd and 3rd guys, etc.  e.g. You say the "3th" goes all-in, but then later you say the dealer didn't realize the "2nd" guy went all-in.  So exactly whose hands have been mucked?  And when you say "tablet" (I'm assuming you mean tabled), does that mean one or both of the remaining hands were actually turned face-up?

In general, in an all-in situation, all cards must be turned over as soon as all betting is complete AND more importantly, a dealer cannot kill a hand that has been tabled. Therefore, if the hand that the dealer accidentally mucked had actually been turned over, this is one of those times that it would be permissible to retrieve those cards from the muck, and needless to say, the hand would not be dead.

TomKarr

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 16
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2012, 07:34:50 PM »
sorry about my writing but im a fast thinker and even faster writer so i will have lot of mistakes in my posts....:P
second sorry is for not a good explanation of the situation...here is what happened: two guys went all in on the flop, the first guy said all in and dealer started to do the counting, then the second guy put all his chips across the line, when the dealer was still counting the first stack. First guy showed his hand and the second guy as well, pretty standard so far, but now comes the thing, after the dealer finished the first stack, he took (i have absolutely no idea why, or what for, most likely really miserable concentration or something??!) the second guy hand and mucked it. What now? I have absolutely no idea how to rule this kind of a situation, i dont think that going in to the muck and try to find the hand that was mistakenly folded by the dealer is the right way. For lots of things, like lot of people are amateurs and dont even remember if the 10 was in spades or clubs, or the 7 was in diamonds or hearts. You would be surprised how many people dont know and dont remember even basic things like suits. So did he had the Q10 suited or did he had Q of spades and 10 of clubs? Or was the Q in clubs and the 10 in spades? What when nobody at the table was really paying attention in that hand (Obviously the dealer was not :D)? What when some players will say that he had Q of clubs and 10 of spades and the all in guy will say that he was suited and start to fight (verbal :D)? And, and, and...

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2012, 09:10:36 PM »
In general, you definitely don't want to be going into the muck except under very, very exceptional circumstances.  The muck is the muck.

However, this may be one of those rare circumstances.  You say that "First guy showed his hand and the second guy as well".  The rules are clear:  

10. Killing Winning Hand  Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled and was obviously the winning hand. Players are encouraged to assist in reading tabled hands if it appears that an error is about to be made.

Whenever all hands have been duly tabled, we want the best hand win to the pot.  I believe a TD must do whatever is possible to achieve this, in the best interests of the tournament.  Also, a player, by tabling his hand, is afforded a certain degree of protection that he would not otherwise be entitled to if his hand were mucked without being tabled for whatever reason.  Just to be clear, the only reason I am going into the muck here is that both hands have been properly tabled.

Are you saying that no one at the table saw the second hand at all?  The dealer?  The other players?  (I'm assuming no cameras)? What did the player say he had?  Even if the second player could not remember the exact suits, he probably at least knows the ranks and the colors, and I don't have a problem looking into the muck to investigate... it will likely only be a problem if the suits actually make a difference as to who wins the hand and if there are actually two cards of the same color and the same rank in the muck.   
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 09:24:44 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3352
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2012, 09:34:03 PM »
TomKarr,

 I'd like to start out by saying the first mistake your dealer made was to count the first all-in bet. Announcing all-in is all that is required of the dealer, at this point, and only if the player didn't say it loud enough. If the next player requests a count (calling player), TDA rules only favor a clear view of the all-in bet. The dealer should break-down the all-in (if necessary) so the calling player can easily assess the amount wagered.

 How the dealer killed the exposed hand is beyond me. However, once the hand was exposed (properly tabled) the hand could not be mucked. If every attempt to reconstruct the mucked hand fails, then (unfortunately) the floor will have to come up with a decision that will at least leave one player pretty upset if it cost him the pot.

 The hand can not be killed but if all attempts to reconstruct the hand fail, what options do you have? When you consider the first player did nothing wrong, I would have to award the pot to the first all-in. It's a mess for sure but, the second player did not protect his hand and has no cards. I would certainly try for a better solution but, that's all I've got for now.

 If nothing else, it should get some controversial discussion started :D

TomKarr

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 16
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2012, 08:34:54 AM »
Nic-C

If someone goes all-in and the second player wants to know how much it is, dealer has to count and say the exact amount, like every bet. And this was the case. I know that it was only the dealers fold and i have absolutely no idea why he did that, and no tolerance for such a mistake, folding a tabled hand in an all-in situation, but he did. I just wanna know what is the best solution in this situation, to be prepared for the future.

PS: Thanks for all posts and replies  ;D

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3352
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2012, 02:19:43 PM »
TomKarr,

 I was hoping I'd get a little back-up on this one but, I guess I'm on my own. What you said about the dealer giving the player the exact amount, is not in compliance with TDA rule # 41 [Accepted Action].

 I agree with what you say but, those are not the current rules. I think you should look to some of the other recent posts on this subject, and perhaps you can voice your opinion. There are many members that feel the way you do.

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2012, 06:33:57 PM »
Nick,

I agree with TomKarr and think that the potential caller can ask the dealer to count the all-in amount, on his turn, and the dealer will then announce the amount.  This has always been part of the dealer's job, and I don't think Accepted Action changes that.

But what Accepted Action does say now explicitly, is that if the Dealer gets it wrong, the caller is still on the hook for the actual amount.  The implication is also that the all-in bettor has no incentive to correct the dealer even if the all-in knows the dealer has screwed up.  So you might say, "what's the point of asking for a count then"??  Ha ha ha.  Yep.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3352
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2012, 08:26:12 PM »
K-Lo,

 I rest my case ;D

MikeB

  • Administrator
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2012, 11:51:04 PM »

But what Accepted Action does say now explicitly, is that if the Dealer gets it wrong, the caller is still on the hook for the actual amount...
.... and the caller will win the actual amount...

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3352
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2012, 08:29:05 AM »
Mike,

 Why not just say; Player's about to call a bet or raise, must never ask the dealer the required amount to call ???  That's precisely what those of us that oppose the rule are against.

 The way I see it, one of the fundamental duties of a good dealer is to make sure the bets are correct. Taking the dealer out of the equation is poor judgement for management and can only lead to more problems.

Spence

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2012, 09:30:57 PM »
I get the feeling that half of all the new threads will devolve into Accepted action arguments...
My question here is about rule 15.
15: Killing Winning Hand
Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled and was obviously the winning hand. Players are encouraged to assist in reading tabled hands if it appears that an error is about to be made.

In the example, betting happens on the flop, how then can we know what the winning hand is? Does this rule truly apply? Of course it does at showdown. That's why the rule is there. Does this give us a right to go muck fishing if there are still cards to be dealt or do we have to be more creative. Returning uncalled portion and leaving the hand mucked? Split the pot? Etc? This is my dilemma. I've had to rule on situations like this before but I don't think there is any particular standardization. All of us seem to be on the same page about digging through the muck. We hate it. It can be a necessary evil and in cases like these I'm pretty sure we've all done it. I would like to see us collectively bring up some scenarios or rules regarding the best ruling under different circumstances.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 04:16:28 PM by Spence »

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2012, 11:22:21 PM »
Not sure I follow you Spence.  Rule 15 doesn't apply when there has been no showdown, I don't think.  Do you mean someone showed their cards but didn't call a bet prior to the river...?  I just can't picture the situation you are trying to describe.

Your suggestion (which is I think) to outline specific situations in which it can be OK to retrieve cards from the muck is interesting.  I'd have to think about that one.

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: Dead hand or what?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2012, 05:26:43 AM »
If player 2's cards were shown, then they are indeed live, and will be retrieved for the showdown "a dealer cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled"

The player can ask the dealer for a count, but there's nothing to say that the dealer has to count the chips, it's the players own responsibility to ascertain the amount if the all-in

Stuart