Author Topic: Raise after the Flop  (Read 3484 times)

Captainseb

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Raise after the Flop
« on: January 29, 2010, 02:11:05 PM »
Hello

We are having a debate, on a particular rule of raising and the definition of initial bet after the flop, as the rules of our league are writen now. 

Rules of leagues
"Initial bet after the flop: the initial bet must always be equal to or more than the Big Blind."

"Raise after the flop: the first raise is always equal to or more than the initial bet of the round which must be equal to ore more than the big Blind. Every following raise for this round of betting must be equal to or more than the previous raise."

Exemple 1: blinds 100/200, after the flop, the first player bets 600 in the pot. The first player who wants to raise must place at least 1200 in front of him (600 to follow and 600 to raise which is the amount of the initial bet). The next player who wants to re-raise must place at least 1800 in front of him (1200 to follow the previous bet plus 600 to raise which is the amount of the previous raise).

Exemple 2: blinds 1000/2000; after the flop, the first player to act pushes all in with only 1500. the first player who wants to raise must place at least 3500 in front of him (1500 to follow plus 2000 more which is the amount of the big blind). The next player who wants to re-raise must place at least 5500 in front of him (3500 to follow the previous bet plus 2000 to raise which is the amount of the previous raise).

For full league rules please visit http://www.onptl.com/en/league/rules.php rules section for all info

We would like some input on if the initial bet after the flop rule is O.K. and if the Example 1 and Example 2 are O.K.

Which rules would support these example and if we need modification

Thank you very much everyone

Sebastien   

Stuart Murray

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Re: Raise after the Flop
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2010, 07:09:25 AM »
Sebastian,

Your wording although slightly complicated is the same as the TDA rules, your examples are both correct in your interpretation also.  You should perhaps consider rephrasing the wording slightly as it is slightly over complex and over explains the the minimum raise - the BB is a forced bet anyway being faced by players who wish to act on their hands so no example of pre-flop raise of the blind is really required.

I find your house rules can be very simple (mine only has 14 items, with some merely re-emphasising TDA rules) to cover items which are not included in the TDA rule set

TDA rule 31 attached below.

31.   Raises 
A raise must be at least the size of the largest previous bet or raise of the current betting round.  If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he or she must make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed (see exception for multiple same-denomination chips Rule 33). In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.

Best Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Captainseb

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Re: Raise after the Flop
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2010, 04:29:40 PM »
Thanks Stu for the answer

Where we desagree more is on example 2 where the raise should be 3500 or 4000

Because if UTG goes all in but can't match the big bling what is the minimum rise for the player in middle position

Sebastien

chet

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Re: Raise after the Flop
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2010, 10:23:51 PM »

Where we desagree more is on example 2 where the raise should be 3500 or 4000

Because if UTG goes all in but can't match the big bling what is the minimum rise for the player in middle position

Sebastien

Sebastien:

Your original post doesn't say whether this is Limit or No-Limit.

For LIMIT, from Robert's Rules of Poker, ver. 10, Chap 2, Sec. 3.5: Betting and Raising, Sub. 7.  In limit play, an all-in wage of less than half a bet does not reopen the getting for any player who has already acted and is in the pot for all previous bets.  A player who has not yet acted (or had the betting reopened to him by another player's action), facing an all-in wage of less than half a bet, may fold, call or complete the wager.  An all-in wager of half a bet or more is treated as a full bet, and a player may fold, call or make a full raise. (emphasis added) (An example of a full raise on a $20 betting round is raising a $15 all-in bet to $35.

Since in your example #2 the $1500 wager is more than half a bet (the amount of the big blind) it would be treated as a full bet.  Per the example, the raise by the following player would have to be to a total of $3500.

For No-Limit, from Robert's Rules of Poker, Ver. 10, Chap 2, Sec. 14.1: No-Limit Rules, Sub. 2:  "The minimum bet size is the amount of the minimum bring-in, unless the player is going all-in.  The minimum bring-in is the size of the big blind unless the structure of the game is preset by the house to some other amount (such as double the big blind).  The minimum bet remains the same amount non all betting rounds.  If the big blind does not have sufficient chips to post the required amount, a player who enters the pot on the initial betting round is still required to enter for at least the minimum bet (unless going all-in for a lesser sum) and the preflop raise must at least double the size of the big blind.At all other times, when someone goes all-in for less than the minimum bet, a player has the option of just calling the all-in amount.  If a player goes all-in for an amount that is less than the minimum bet, a player who wishes to raise must raise at least the amount of the minimum bet.  For example, if the minimum bet is $100, and a player goes all-in on the flop for $20, a player may fold, call $20, or raise to at least a total of $120(emphasis added)."

In no-limit the half a bet rule does not apply so the  minimum raise would be to a total of $3500.

I suggest you look for Robert's Rules of Poker (ver. 11 is now available on-line) at "http://www.pokercoach.us/"

Hope this helps!!

Stuart Murray

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Re: Raise after the Flop
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2010, 07:34:18 AM »
Seb,

As per Chets detailed response and quotes from Robert's Rules of Poker the minimum raise in your second example is 3,500.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Raise after the Flop
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2010, 02:50:31 PM »
Just to reiterate... both your examples are correct. No modification needed. Just some rewording as Stu said.
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