Author Topic: Intent?  (Read 5003 times)

edfrzr

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Intent?
« on: July 10, 2012, 07:29:07 PM »
The situation is this.

Heads up -- first player to act after the flop verbally declares all-in. next player to act takes a minute or two, frowns, shrugs, sighs and then says, "ok" and turns both cards up. Is this a call or a fold? I know it is all about the intent. but, the player never verbally said "ok, i call," or "ok, i fold", just ok and then exposeed their cards.

The player making the initial bet took it as a call but the other person said that it was a fold and that they were just showing why they didn't call.

thanks for the help.

ED

Nick C

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Re: Intent?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 08:42:27 PM »
Ed,

 If you follow TDA rules, you must consider the player is folding. Saying "OK" is not okay when it comes to Rule #3 Official Terminology. There are a few quick reactions that could get more clarification as far as the intent of the player but, with your description the player is at the mercy of the floor. Players need to learn there are consequences to their  unclear actions.

K-Lo

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Re: Intent?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2012, 10:26:59 PM »
It is very important that dealers ask for clarification immediately when a player's action is in any way unclear - if the dealer had simply asked the second player "OK, what??" or "Is that a fold or a call"? before the all-in player has a chance to expose his cards, these issues can generally be avoided altogether.  These types of situations are not uncommon - players seem to like to say "OK" or "sure" or "yeah" or "oh well" after an all-in, and sometimes they mean "call" and sometimes they are being facetious and have no intention of calling.  The dealer must be proactive in these situations to seek clarification.

Unfortunately, as Nick pointed out, when someone uses non-standard words or gestures, he can be at the mercy of the particular floor, and he is solely to blame for not making his intentions clear. 

My personal feeling here is not to hold the second player to a call, but to give him a warning that if he does not verbalize "fold" before turning over his cards next time, he may be held to call even if it were not his intention; and I would also advise the first player to protect his hand by ensuring that his all-in bet has actually been called before exposing his cards, especially if he has not heard the other player verbalize "call" or "all-in". 

ew2484

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Re: Intent?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 11:18:19 PM »
I would hope that the dealer, like K-lo said, immediately asks for clarification before anyone does anything. If player B provides clarification before player A turns his hand over, ill hold him to his statement and apply a 1 round penalty. Should player A expose his hand, I would have to rule the 2nd players hand a fold, and still apply the 1 round penalty for creating the unclear situation

Nick C

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Re: Intent?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2012, 06:18:49 AM »
K-Lo,
 
 Once again, your response is right-on. ew2484 also correctly identifies the problems created by no reaction from the dealer.

 It's always a good thing when we agree. The biggest problem, and cause, of so many of the situations that are discussed on the forum, are compounded by poor reaction from dealers. Take a look back, and you will see that the great majority of the hundreds of topics that affected the overall success of your tournament could have been prevented, or resolved, by a competent dealer.

 The skills of a poker dealer go far beyond the mechanics of the shuffle and pitch. The best dealers are alert, and quick to react to any out of turn, or unclear action. They are in control of the players, and the game.

 I am concerned that too much responsibility is being taken away from poker dealers. Poorly trained and inexperienced dealers is a poor excuse to reduce, or limit the duties of dealers that do it right.  I would prefer that we take more time, to better train them.

 Years ago there used to be a commercial for Maytag, (a major appliance company that manufactured washers and dryers), The scene was a repair man, seated with his feet on a stool and his hands folded behind his head. Their product was so good, that he never got any calls for repair. Now wouldn't that be nice for so many of our supervisors and floor persons. How would you like a little extra time to sip your coffee or chat with the cocktail waitress a little longer, instead of running from table to table every two minutes responding to; "floor...floor to table 34....Oh floor!

 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 06:21:57 AM by Nick C »