POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General

Player not protecting his hand again!

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Georg:
Had this situation today:
Seat 3 moves all in, 4 folds, seat 5 says call, dealer takes away his cards anyway (were not protected) and puts them in the muck (unretrievable), next 2 players fold and while the last player is thinking, seat 2 asks where his cards are. Dealer calls me.
I asked for his hand, he said he had AK but he couldn't remember the suits he just said they were black and red. I insisted, that he tells me the exact suit so I think he just guessed and said it was a King of Hearts and the Ace of clubs. I looked in the muck and found 3 Aces and 2 Kings, while the King of Hearts was there, the Ace of clubs wasn't. I ruled his hand dead. Player 1 had more chips so I busted player 2 from the tournament.

I still don't feel good about it. What are your thougths?

Georg

MikeB:

--- Quote from: Georg on January 27, 2010, 09:58:21 PM ---Had this situation today:  Seat 3 moves all in, 4 folds, seat 5 says call, dealer takes away his cards anyway (were not protected) and puts them in the muck (unretrievable), next 2 players fold and while the last player is thinking, seat 2 asks where his cards are. Dealer calls me.
I asked for his hand, he said he had AK but he couldn't remember the suits he just said they were black and red. I insisted, that he tells me the exact suit so I think he just guessed and said it was a King of Hearts and the Ace of clubs. I looked in the muck and found 3 Aces and 2 Kings, while the King of Hearts was there, the Ace of clubs wasn't. I ruled his hand dead. Player 1 had more chips so I busted player 2 from the tournament.

I still don't feel good about it. What are your thougths? Georg
--- End quote ---

Hi Georg, I take from your description that it was player 5's cards that were accidentally mucked (you say it was player 2), but that doesn't have much bearing on my answer. First I'd stipulate a few things then draw a conclusion for a ruling: 1) This was an unprotected hand. Per TDA rules the player is not guaranteed any redress other than return of an uncalled bet, which we don't have here. 2) Any other consideration for their injury is purely on your house ethics and would fall under "the best interest of the game".  3) Given that the cards were unprotected, the player has contributed to this error and by so doing I personally don't think they have a "guaranteed right" to attempted card muck retrieval. 4) Given this, I'm not going to go out of my way here to try and retrieve these cards. IF they are quite separately visible and he could verify rank and suit without looking at them, then I might consider it.  But that consideration isn't guaranteed under these circumstances, at least in my mind as a judge here. 5) This situation is far from this standard. The cards are buried in the muck, I have zero reason to believe his claim to A-K (nor do I have any particular reason to doubt it either, but the burden surely has to be on the player). 6) I don't think it's fair to the other player to let this guy declare any 2 cards then have me go fishing for them. Bottom line here, as described I would most likely rule the cards dead.   This all said, accidentally mucked cards is always upsetting, it's about the worst situation we face but here I don't have another choice. I don't know what more yu could have done here, you followed your conscience and gave the guy more opportunities than he might have gotten elsewhere, no reason to second guess your decision to rule the cards dead IMO.

Stuart Murray:
Georg,

If I had looked at the muck pile it would have to be two cards only from the muck I was looking at.  If that's not your hand I would be making you play the board for your last hand (Only because you are all-in with a mucked hand)

I would most certainly not be looking through the whole muck pile unless the players hand was mucked as a result of misinformation.

Best Regards
Stuart

pokerfish:
Hi,
Don't beat yourself up about this. You made a decision based on what you deemed fair. IMO you went above and beyond and perhaps too far to retrieve a hand he couldn't even identify. As we mentioned in a prior thread, you can't muck my hand EVER unless you wrestle them from me. His hand is dead.... it's sad, but he didn't exercise good protection or even moderate protection. Buy or comp him dinner and say you're sorry it happened. Suggest (at a later time) that he be more careful in the future. This rarely happens to the same player twice. Let yourself off the hook. This was the players fault, solely.
Jan

Georg:
Thank you all for your opinions!

I did buy him a drink, and gave him a voucher for a tournament buy in. We talked about it and he said, that he understands my position, it just doesn't make it easier for him to bust out of the tournament without beeing beaten by a better hand. It might have helped, that other players on the table talked to him afterwards and said, that they have seen this happen also in other places and that it is a common decision.

Georg (feeling better now :-)

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