Author Topic: Can you raise a "short" all-in?  (Read 4223 times)

Spence

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Can you raise a "short" all-in?
« on: May 30, 2012, 04:37:28 PM »
In the title I have put "short" in quotations. I'm looking for some interpretation on this rule. We've discussed several like this before but I can't remember if this particular circumstance has been addressed. My issue is whether the rule that a short all-in cannot be raised applies.


NLHE
Blind 500-1000
Three players on the turn
Player A: Check
PLayber B: Check
Player C: All-in for 600

Does this constitute a short all-in for the purposes of a re-raise?

Nick C

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Re: Can you raise a "short" all-in?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2012, 08:01:39 PM »
Spence,

 In order to re-raise there must first be a bet followed by a raise. If you are asking if the short all-in re-opens the betting to Player's A & B the answer is no. They may fold or call the action only 600. The reason is, the 600 is less than the 1000 minimum required to reopen the betting.

 If Player A went all-in then either Player B or C could raise a minimum of 1000 more bringing the total to 1600. Likewise, if Player A checks and B goes all-in for 600, then Player C could make a raise because he has not yet acted on that round.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 08:10:53 PM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: Can you raise a "short" all-in?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2012, 09:43:00 PM »
I agree with Nick on all points.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Can you raise a "short" all-in?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2012, 12:05:15 PM »
I also agree.  Checking is an action, and the only way to re-open action to a player who has already acted is by a subsequent legal bet or raise.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Can you raise a "short" all-in?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2012, 05:52:10 AM »
I wrote this piece to help a lot of TD's and Floors understand the rules better:

So many people are easily confused by this, and it's not really a surprise to me, the rules are quite difficult to get your head round, but here goes;  To understand what were discussing we must first goto the actual wording of the rule then I can help you interpret them correctly:
 
TDA RULES:
37:   Raises  A raise must be at least the size of the largest previous bet or raise of the current betting round.  If a player puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he must make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed (see exception for multiple same-denomination chips, Rule 39). In no-limit & pot limit, an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted
FIDPA RULES:
60-4.An “all-in” bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted.
ROBERT'S RULES OF POKER RULES:
14-NL-3 All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 300. A player who has already acted and is not facing a fullsize wager may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the minimum bet or less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)
 
So what they are all saying on the subject of a player not putting enought chips in when all-in to be classed as a full raise is "An “all-in” bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted." But what exactly does this all mean?  Two concepts habe to be understood "Action Changing" and "Action Only," what is Action Changing? a bring-in, complete, full bet or a full raise, which changes the amount to play by a legal amount in the betting round. What is Action Only?  A Check, Fold, Pass, Call or an All-In Raise which is not 200% of the previous bet or raise (In No Limit & Pot Limit).  lets look at some real live scenarios first:
 
No Limit Hold'Em Blinds 200/400
Player A moves all-in for 650 total, what are following players options?
Players can either a) fold, b) call the 650 or c) raise, a further 400 to 1050 but why these amounts??
The all-in from player A is Action Only, but has still changed the amount to play to 650, most will readily accept that following players can call the 650, but many don't understand the raise option.  The amount to play has increased to 650 so following players wishing to raise can do so with a full raise + amount to play so in this example 400 (BB) + 250 (All-in) + a full raise (400) = 1,050 total.
 
now that is the easy part, this is where action changing and action only come into play:
 
NLHE Cash Game Blinds £5/£10
 
Player 1 Calls £10 (Action Only)
Player 2 Raises to £20 (Action Changing by £10)
Player 3 Raises All-In to £24 (Action Only to £24)
All other players including blinds fold back to 1
1 Can a) fold b) call £14 more to £24 or c) raise a minimum of £10 to £34 (£10 + £10 + £4 + £10 = £34)
But why can player 1 raise again? It says above "An “all-in” bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted" - But his action has been changed by player 2 by raising to £20 so discounting the £24 all-in of player 3, action has been changed by player 2 to player 1's call.  Now where does this rule apply though?  If player 1 calls the £24 bet, then it applies as player 2 can only call the £4 more or fold as his action has not been changed by anyone, but if player 1 raised, say to £45 then player 2 can do what he wants yet again as the action has once more been changed
 
So with all that in mind let's look at another example from another recent poker tournament:
 
NLHE Blinds 2000/4000/a500
Player 1 Limps for 4,000 (Action Only)
Player 2 Folds (Action Only)
Player 3 Shoves for 7,500 (Action Only)
Folded to Blinds
SB Folds
BB Calls 3,500 more (action only)
Player 1 wants to raise - but he can't as the action has not changed, he can only fold or call the additional 3,500
 
What about when the BB is all-in for less than the BB amount?
Lets say blinds are 2000/4000/a500, BB has 4000 at the start of the hand, so he has 500 for his ante and 3,500 for his BB, players have to call the BB amount not what the player has, so players who wish to call have to call 4,000.  That ones pretty straightforward!
 
So remember anytime someone raises all-in short you must still include that in the total to play but if raising must make it at least a full bet on top of the total required
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

K-Lo

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Re: Can you raise a "short" all-in?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2012, 06:58:30 AM »
Nice, Stuart.  I'm sure your players appreciate this.

Quick point of clarification - your article states in the introductory section: "What is Action Only?  A Check, Fold, Pass, Call or an All-In Raise which is not 200% of the previous bet or raise". Do you think the reference to "200%" is clear?  

If what is meant is the raise amount as opposed to the total amount of the wager, then it would be action only if the all-in wager corresponds with a raise amount that is simply less than the last legal bet or raise (amount), i.e. not less than 200% of it.

On the other hand, if what was meant is the total amount of the all-in wager, then the 200% would be correct only if the previous bet was unraised and was greater or equal than the minimum bet for that round (i.e. a legal bet).  For example, blinds 200-400: legal all-in must be 800 or more.  However, if there has been a raise, then the total amount of a legal all-in raise is not necessarily doubled.  For example, blinds 200-400, raise to 800:  subsequent legal all-in must be 1200 or more.  i.e. A raise to a total of 1200 is sufficient here to be legal, it does not need to be double the 800 or 1600.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 07:01:23 AM by K-Lo »

Spence

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Re: Can you raise a "short" all-in?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2012, 04:17:36 PM »
I thought my quesion might provoke a few different responses but I am impressed to see that everyone agrees. I'll admit I was looking for a less liberal interpretation of the raising rules but I am happy with the responses.Thanks guys!

Nick C

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Re: Can you raise a "short" all-in?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2012, 08:42:05 PM »
Spence,
 I thought that this might be a good time to chime in and say that...I understand the rules but, I don't like the raise rules for no-limit. They are by far the most complicated and there are at least 2 different rule sets that I would prefer. #1.)  the 50% rule used in limit. Or #2.) A raise that is only recognized when completed to 100%.

diz475

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Re: Can you raise a "short" all-in?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2012, 12:34:38 PM »
i would like to add a twist to this by adding limit holdem example.

after the flop 600 chip betting round player A bets 600 player B calls 600 player C all in for 800 back to player a he wants to complete to 1200, yes or no


i say no he has not been raised less then 50%

if it was 900 all in player a could then raise to 1500


this is using the 50% rule for limit that the tda's do not talk about but need to