Author Topic: Use of oversized chip in the BB  (Read 11965 times)

Spence

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2012, 04:33:46 PM »
It seems so odd to me that we are all agreeing on the bet being a raise. Why is it that Matt and his twitter followers would rule exactly the opposite? There must be information we are missing to have such incongruous rulings from the same scenario. Moreso the fact that Matt is one of our founding members. Anyone else see this as odd?

Nick C

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2012, 08:06:44 PM »
Spence,
 Unfortunately, there are many situations that we have differing opinions on. IMO, it's because of the way the rules are written. They are too vague and open to conjecture.
 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 03:08:56 PM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2012, 11:51:16 AM »
It seems so odd to me that we are all agreeing on the bet being a raise. Why is it that Matt and his twitter followers would rule exactly the opposite? There must be information we are missing to have such incongruous rulings from the same scenario. Moreso the fact that Matt is one of our founding members. Anyone else see this as odd?

No, it was very a simple question.  But don't forget that most of his followers are players, and a lot of them just vaguely know there's a single chip rule generally.  Matt's point was that in situations like these, he would give weight to the "majority rule"  when the situation is unclear.  He brought up the fact that if the big blind did this before it was his turn to act, that no one would rule that as a raise out of turn, but rather clearly a call. 

Personally, I don't think there is a clarity issue.  We are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that the player is doing the exchange in turn signifies an intention to raise much more clearly than the hypothetical out of turn exchange.   Bringing in the out of turn scenario is just a red herring.

Nick C

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2012, 09:03:14 PM »
Here we are on page #2 and the consensus is: You can call it any way you'd like. This is not good.

Kerry DeVore

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2012, 09:43:09 PM »
OK. No limit game. Blinds 100 200. Assuming position one is the SB, position 2 is BB and so on. Position 3 folds, postion 4 calls 200. Position 5 calls 200 Position 5 throws in a 500 chip without any verbal or physical indication it is a raise, Position 6 throws in 200 but Position 5 objects saying he raised. I ruled Position 5 bet was a call. Was I right?
K G DE VORE

Nick C

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2012, 06:13:00 AM »
Welcome to the forum! Yes Kerry, without declaring a raise prior to the chip hitting the table, it can only be a call. This is the single oversize chip rule.

K-Lo

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2012, 06:30:47 AM »
Agreed with Nick.  This is one of the most common rulings that you will make. 

PokerChip

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2012, 02:26:21 PM »
I just posted the same question not knowing that this thread was going, but here is my confusion.

Rules are NOT supposed to be up for interpretation; however, it appears that is what is happening here. The Oversized rule states that when a single chip is thrown in without a declaration, then it is considered a call. Why then would we allow a raise even though a player pulls back his BB? If the rule is hard and fast and not subject to interpretation, then a single chip thrown in SHOULD be a call? We can't interpret that the player MEANT to raise if he throws in a single chip?

We had this situation last night and it would be great to have some real clarity here.

Nick C

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2012, 06:03:43 PM »
Pokerchip,
 If I can try to better explain with one more example: If the player were on the small blind and he retracted his bet and replaced it with a larger denomination chip, it would be a call. If the player were on the big blind (with no raises) retracting his big blind and putting a larger denomination chip is a raise...why else would he make such a move?

K-Lo

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2012, 10:32:40 PM »
Rules are NOT supposed to be up for interpretation; however, it appears that is what is happening here. The Oversized rule states that when a single chip is thrown in without a declaration, then it is considered a call. (my emphasis)

Pokerchip:  I understand your frustration, and hence my original post.  A few comments though.  

You say that the "Oversized rule states that when a single chip is thrown in without a declaration, then it is considered a call", and that the rule should be applied 'hard and fast' and not be subject to interpretation.  However, note that the rule as written doesn't say exactly that.

38:   Oversized Chip Betting
Anytime when facing a bet or blind, placing a single oversized chip in the pot is a call if a raise isnít first verbally declared. [...] When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.

(emphasis added)

This is TDA Rule 38.  There are similar provisions in all the other major rulebooks.

According to a strict reading of the rule, note that the single chip without a verbal declaration is a call only when facing a bet or a blind.  Note that it doesn't say that the single chip without a verbal declaration is a call always or "in all circumstances".  On the contrary - the rule itself provides a very specific condition that must satisfied before the general statement that you gave applies.

So this begs the question:  when you are in the BB, and everyone limps to you, are you "facing a bet"?  Are you "facing a blind"?  Is it clear, and can you apply this rule 'hard and fast'?  Note that if everyone limps to you in the BB -- your only options are to check or raise, not to "call" (unless you think 'check' means "call zero", which itself involves a creative "interpretation" of "check").  

It is different when someone has put out a bet post-flop and you are faced with the decision to call it or not, or you are not in the blinds and are faced with the decision of whether to call the blind or not pre-flop. In those situations, there actually is a bet or blind to be called.

It has also been pointed out that the rule actually says that "when not facing a bet", the oversized chip without declaration is the maximum for the chip.  When someone checks to you post-flop and you throw out a 500 chip, you are clearly betting 500.  You are not "calling zero" there.  So when everyone limps to the Big Blind pre-flop, and the Big Blind has no bet to "call" since he can only check or raise, doesn't this part of the rule apply?

And so there we have the dilemma.

I agree with you that rules are ideally clear enough that they need not be subject to "interpretation", meaning that they can be applied strictly.  But it's not always as easy as one might think, and that is why when the answer is not clear cut for a given rule, we have to take into account a variety of factors to try to come up with a ruling that would appear to be the most fair --- or put forward a change in the rule so that no "interpretation" is required.  In fact, perhaps because of our discussion here, we might see the rule clarified in the future.

For this particular rule, I think one of the big problems is that much of the general public thinks that the rule simply says "single chip = call", because that is easy to remember. And it clearly applies 95% of the time, so there is rarely an issue.  But in my opinion, it is an inaccurate generalization of the actual rule.  For that 5% of the time where it isn't clear how the actual rule should be applied, because for example we don't know if the BB's option to check or raise can be equated with "facing a bet or a blind", we are left doing what we are doing now -- trying to work out what the ruling should be in a principled and fair manner, and seeing if the majority of experienced TDs will see the problem (and the solution) in the same way.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 10:35:35 PM by K-Lo »

PokerChip

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2012, 07:16:21 AM »
K-Lo, i must admit that you make a very compelling argument for why this particular situation is a Raise as opposed to a Call. I have to agree with your logic that the BB's only option is to either raise or check and by throwing out a larger denomination chip, this could signify a raise. Now... if the BB leaves his $100 out there and just throws in a $500 chip, does this also constitute a raise? I suppose the answer is yes.

Really good discussion and worth bringing up at the next TDA meeting.

PokerChip

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2012, 09:50:29 AM »
OK... Next question in this same venue...

1) Blinds are 50/100. Small Blind tosses in a 500 chip and AFTER THE CHIP HITS THE TABLE (albeit a second or two), pulls back his 50 SB. Call or raise?

2) Blinds are 50/100. Small blind pulls back his 50 and THEN tosses in a 500 chip. Call or raise?

2) Blinds are 50/100. Small Blind tosses in a 500 chip, but leaves his SB in the pot. Call or raise?

Thanks for an interesting thread.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2012, 10:15:30 AM »
OK... Next question in this same venue...

1) Blinds are 50/100. Small Blind tosses in a 500 chip and AFTER THE CHIP HITS THE TABLE (albeit a second or two), pulls back his 50 SB. Call or raise?

2) Blinds are 50/100. Small blind pulls back his 50 and THEN tosses in a 500 chip. Call or raise?

2) Blinds are 50/100. Small Blind tosses in a 500 chip, but leaves his SB in the pot. Call or raise?

Thanks for an interesting thread.

Call
Call
Call

K-Lo

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2012, 10:17:45 AM »
if the BB leaves his $100 out there and just throws in a $500 chip, does this also constitute a raise? I suppose the answer is yes.

I agree.  I will rule this a raise 100% of the time.

1) Blinds are 50/100. Small Blind tosses in a 500 chip and AFTER THE CHIP HITS THE TABLE (albeit a second or two), pulls back his 50 SB. Call or raise?

2) Blinds are 50/100. Small blind pulls back his 50 and THEN tosses in a 500 chip. Call or raise?

2) Blinds are 50/100. Small Blind tosses in a 500 chip, but leaves his SB in the pot. Call or raise?

I would rule the 1) scenario a call.  In that case, the small blind actually faces a bet, and he can either call, fold or raise.  He must call at least 50 depending on the preceding action. Tossing in the 500 chip with the 50 still in the pot, without verbal declaration, is a call.  Specifically, it is a call of 50 (or more if the pot was raised). 

The second one is a bit trickier, but in my view, the same principle applies.  The action to the sb is to call at least 50.  In this case, a single denomination chip is a call of that amount, in the absence of a verbal declaration to raise. 

The third one is ruled the same as 1) effectively.  It is 50 to call, and the single oversized chip is "call 50". 

Technically, the small blind that was posted is actually already in the communal pot, and isn't really available to be taken back by players even though we leave it in front of players as a "reminder".  In all of the last three cases then, the sb must call an outstanding bet or a portion of it, and thus an oversized chip is only a call in all of these cases.  The player reaching back into the pot is a bit of a red herring IMO.  Contrast this to the big blind case where call is not an option if no one raises.

These are my thoughts.  I am sure other TDs will chime in.

k

Nick C

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2012, 10:22:38 AM »
PokerChip,
 
 I can only tell you the calls that I would make. I am not in agreement with K-Lo on this one.

 #1 As a dealer, I would announce "raise" because the proper procedure is to remove your undersized SB before tossing the over-sized chip into the pot. If the action were corrected before the next player reacts, I might allow the player to call, if that were his intent. You can see how complicated some of these situations can become. A warning to the player that he must make his intention clear usually is enough to prevent the same from happening again.

 #2 This is a call because he is facing an increase to complete the BB amount.

 #3 I would consider this a definite intent to raise. Like I said before, players must learn that there are consequences to their unclear actions.