Author Topic: Use of oversized chip in the BB  (Read 10573 times)

K-Lo

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Use of oversized chip in the BB
« on: April 30, 2012, 12:40:31 PM »
Hi all:

I thought it would be nice to get some opinions on this interesting scenario that Matt Savage raised on this twitter feed recently:

"Blinds 100-200, called in two spots, gets back to BB who pulls out 200 and throws in a single 500 chip?"

After polling his followers, it appears that opinion was split between determining that it was a call vs a raise, with a slight favor to it being a call. 

I thought these main points in favor of a call were interesting:
- The fact that most people cannot agree already suggest that the betting is unclear.  So if it is not clear, revert to lowest 'amount' for action (i.e. check).
- One could reasonably argue for a different interpretation of the 500 chip - asking for change.  Particularly since if the player had swapped the 500 chip before the action came to him, that would most likely be taken for simply asking for change, rather than a raise action out of turn.

I thought these main points in favor of a raise were interesting:
- When put out in turn, the additional wager action is clearly a bet of the oversized chip amount, even without a verbal declaration
- TDA Rule 38 on Oversized Chip wagering sets out that when "not facing a bet or a blind", the bet is the maximum amount of that chip, and the BB is not facing a bet or a blind if his options are to check or raise.

I do admit that the action reeks of lack of clarity, but on the other hand, the wording of the TDA rule appears relevant.  Thoughts?


Nick C

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2012, 02:50:09 PM »
K-Lo,
 Interesting, indeed. I would call it a raise because the only time a player can go into the betting area a take back his chips is when he is changing-up. The best example is blinds of 50 and 100, and the SB removes his two 25's and puts a 100 count chip in the pot to call the BB.  The player was already in for all bets, so what else was he doing? Sorry, too much thought into the technical end of rules. I'll bet the player's intention was to raise, correct? The key word is; intention. I rule a 300 raise to a total of the value of the single chip. Period! Perhaps some of these joker's will make their intentions clear when betting and raising. You can't put that player in a position that could induce a re-raise from the next player, only to have the BB say he was looking for change, and did not want to raise? Sorry, not at my table.

chet

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2012, 05:42:13 PM »
Nick:  Got to agree with you on this one.  It is definitely a raise.  The only thing in question, in my mind, is the amount of the raise.  It could be 400 or 500.  The OP did not specify if this was a Limit or a No-Limit game.  If Limit, then the raise is to 400.  If No-Limit then I could agree with a raise to 500.  That said, if there are those that think the BB action is unclear (which I don't), I might be convinced to hold the BB to the minimum of 400.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2012, 06:25:39 PM »
Chet,
 Very good answer. I'm always assuming that the game is no limit. A raise is what I'd call it, for sure. It's amazing how much I disagree with so many TD's... ::)

W0lfster

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 11:03:42 AM »
Im a bit confused sorry, doesnt an oversized chip without verbal declaration mean a call?

chet

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2012, 01:48:38 PM »
Wolfster:  Did you read the whole question or just the part about the oversize chip?

The player is in the BB and posted his BB of 200.  When the action gets back to that player, he pulls his 200 BB back and replaces it with a single 500 chip.

In my opinion this is vastly different than the player who is not in the blind and places a single oversize chip into the pot.  That is clearly a call, lacking any verbal statement otherwise. 

There is no point whatsoever in the player pulling back his BB since he did not need change for the SB next hand unless he intended to raise.  This assumes that he used multiple chips for the BB.  However, I don't know of any place that uses 200 chips, so back to my original answer, raise!

Nick C

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2012, 01:50:34 PM »
Wolfster,
 Why did the player put in the 500? What was his intention for putting in the oversize chip, if not to raise? He was in for the full amount already.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 01:51:59 PM by Nick C »

W0lfster

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2012, 03:50:05 PM »
fair enough, it makes more sense now but if he hadnt taken his 200 back and thrown in the 500 chip to 700 total without verbal declaration would that be different? A call?

Nick C

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2012, 04:16:09 PM »
Wolfster,

 Come on Wolf...it would be a raise to 700 in a no limit game. That's for sure.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2012, 06:19:49 AM »
This one has to be based on intent also, most of the time though I would let it go as a raise to 500 total.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
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National Tournament Director

K-Lo

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 06:29:18 PM »
So... it is interesting that a lot of replies here lean more towards "raise" than "call".  I would tend to agree, although Matt and 50%+ of his followers lean towards a call.

Let's talk about the relevance of 'intention' a bit more...

Scenario #2:

Blinds are 200-400.  UTG raises to 1200.  Action folds to player A who throws in one 5000 chip with two 100 chips.  Dealer rules this as a raise, floor is called.  It is explained that the three chips were thrown in without a verbal declaration.  Players insists that he thought the 5000 chip was a 1000 chip, and the intention was to call, not raise.

Nick C

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2012, 08:36:06 PM »
K-Lo,
 My first reaction, as a dealer, would be to announce raise, "total 5200" or "re-raise 4000 more!" If the player that made the mistake corrected the error before another player acted, a decision could be made either way. This, however is much different from the original scenario where the player in question was in for all bets. Tournament rules would lean more in the direction of forcing the player to commit to the unintentional raise...that's what I don't like about tournaments.

Spence

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2012, 04:16:22 PM »
In the inital question I agree that it is a raise as well. 500 is the bet.
As for Scenario #2: Under normal circumstances I am inclined to say this is a raise. However, at my current establishment we do not have the denominations on our touranment chips. This leads to a lot of confusion for newer players and we often have to give the benefit of the doubt. I rule with Nick here. If no other player has acted then the raise can be corrected.
This thread seems to be mostly falling towards the intent of the player which is largely unlike us in past threads. Many of us seem to be inclined to follow letter of the law rather than what the players intent was because we can be somewhat exploited through that. In this circumstance though I think that we need to be cautious of what the players intentions are and simply state Rule #1 if necessary. I'd rather not be tied to giving everyone a second chance because we mandate a rule about intention or one of our rulings gets construed that players might get a "freebie". Yes intention counts, but it puts you are at the mercy of the TD

K-Lo

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2012, 07:06:46 AM »
I really like your reply, Spence.  Here are my thoughts generally along the same lines.

I admit that I am one of the less lenient ones -- particularly in situations like the 5200 one where the "fix" is so easy... if a player could have simply verbalized the amount of the bet/raise and that statement would have prevented the 'irregularity' from occurring, and no one else (dealer/player) was at fault, I don't usually feel justified in making exceptions.  By ruling strictly, there is less of a subjective element to decision making, less risk of being accused of favouritism, and doing so is more likely to result in more consistent rulings.  The supposed 'intent' of the player is an important factor, but not always the defining one IMO, especially if the 'intent' is only made clear after some after-the-fact explanation by the player when the visual evidence of the wager contradicts the supposed true intention, and objectively the action at issue cannot be seen as a clear mistake.  If the bettor's true intent were the only consideration, then we would not even have such well-established rules as the single oversized chip rule.

That being said, the situation in the original post is different from the 5200 case, in my opinion.  We are not talking about a situation where the intent of the player is at odds with what the bet would visually indicate to players without any further explanation.  The true intent of the player here is more likely a raise to 500 than something else contrived like asking for change, and the bet of 500 that remains in front of the player looks like a 500 bet to any observer.  The fact that these are consistent should be given significant weight, and it makes sense to me to lean towards ruling this as 500 unless there is a rule that clearly would suggest the outcome should be different. Contrary to the people who voted the action as being a call (largely citing the oversized chip rule but not really thinking about the purpose of the rule), I don't think the single oversized chip rule being a call clearly covers this situation because there is no outstanding bet to be called. You have to force a creative interpretation of the BB "calling zero" to try to get the rule to apply.  IMO, the spirit of the single oversized chip rule is not in play here.  Therefore, it makes sense to me that the raise should be to 500, and I don't see why this wouldn't be a fair outcome.

Nick C

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Re: Use of oversized chip in the BB
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2012, 12:46:20 PM »
K-Lo,
 I like it when we agree. IMO, the original situation should not be governed by the oversize chip rule, as you so eloquently stated.