Author Topic: Misdeals - Boxed cards  (Read 24501 times)

WSOPMcGee

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Misdeals - Boxed cards
« on: April 25, 2012, 03:24:58 PM »
Taking a survey  ;D

I could swear that I've either read, heard or discussed with many esteemed poker vets that a boxed card on the initial deal is also a misdeal.

Pouring over my rule books, including my own, I have seen some say it is a misdeal in tournament only and others say it is a misdeal only if 2 cards are boxed.

I am failing to the see the difference between 2 boxed cards being a misdeal upon the initial deal and 2 boxed cards being a misdeal at any point during the entire hand.If that's the case the rule should read "Two boxed cards are a misdeal regardless of when they occur" and there shouldn't have to be a description of two events where the result is the same.

 The more I think it over, the more I'm inclined to have a misdeal declared in these two situations regarding boxed cards:

  • Any boxed card on the initial deal.
IMO if it's possible to redeal the hand before action takes place because of a boxed card being exposed, I think we should do it. Why risk having action take place after the initial boxed card, only to have another boxed card at some point later in the hand and therefore have all the action nullified.  I'm all for treating a boxed card like a piece of paper after action has already be taken place.
  • Two or more boxed card are found at any point during a hand.
Standard rule already used.
[/list]

Opinions please
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K-Lo

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2012, 04:29:58 PM »
First, I have to respectfully disagree that it is a misdeal when two or more boxed cards are found at any point during a hand is the standard rule.  Although there has been some discussion as to whether or not the rule should be changed, I think the rules are actually clear that the two or more boxed cards must be found during the initial distribution of cards, and before substantial action pre-flop has taken place. In my opinion, the overriding general principle is absolutely clear:  once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called (the exception being if the deck is 'fouled').  

Since no action has yet to take place, it is easier at that point in time to "restart" the hand when two boxed cards are found or similarly, two cards are exposed by dealer error, during the initial distribution. At this point, no one is reasonably certain how many opponents there will be in the hand, what the betting will be like, whether they are favored to win, and so on.  So this is a fine compromise rather than trying to force the deal continue.  

Second, once the deal is started, any further boxed cards are treated as a scrap of paper.  Even if there are 2, 4, 6 or 8 boxed cards found, the rule can be applied uniformly, and no subjective assessment is required.  A misdeal, in my opinion, should not be called.  One might say "well the player would have hit a flush, or would have hit trips", etc., but it was just as likely that a card that would not have helped might appear boxed, so I do not find that argument persuasive.  My biggest concern is that if there is an automatic rule that says that there will be a misdeal upon finding a second boxed card in the middle of a hand, then it would be too easy for a rogue dealer to manipulate the deck to kill the hand. I would have the same concerns if there was a rule that a second card exposed anytime during a hand would result in a misdeal.  Once there has been action, the hand is much more defined:  we have limited the number of opponents, and there will be one player typically that is favored to win... sometimes they may even have the other player drawing dead.  The hand should be permitted to proceed to completion.  Calling a misdeal at this point can be highly prejudicial to the player most favored to win at that point.  This is much different than discovering the boxed cards during the initial deal.

In summary, I would respectfully disagree with calling a misdeal in the situations that you describe.  However, what I would support, is that if a boxed card is found at any point in the hand, that the floor should be permitted to ask the dealer to spread the deck to check for a second (or more) boxed cards.  Since it is highly likely that a second boxed card will follow a first, and one player might be an advantage because it was his hand in a previous deal and only he knows the second card, then looking to see if there are other boxed cards before continuing would not advantage any particular player.  But then, I would still insist that the hand proceed to completion after the check is done.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 05:24:54 AM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2012, 07:16:33 PM »
Hello Thomas, welcome back. I've just read your post along with the excellent reply from K-Lo. I have to tell you that the standard rules for boxed cards have been the same for as long as I remember. The first boxed card is treated like it does not exist and is replaced by the card directly beneath it. If a second boxed card appears at any time during the deal, all bets are returned to the player's and a new hand is dealt. I will find the rule I'm sure, but it will have to wait until tomorrow.

K-Lo

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2012, 09:51:45 PM »
Come to think about it, I think a long time ago, two boxed cards at any time in the hand would void the hand completely.  One of my older books seem to have that provision.  But I think we have moved away from that interpretation now, and I think the most recent version of RROP supports not calling a misdeal after substantial action has occurred.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2012, 02:43:04 AM »
Come to think about it, I think a long time ago, two boxed cards at any time in the hand would void the hand completely.  One of my older books seem to have that provision.  But I think we have moved away from that interpretation now, and I think the most recent version of RROP supports not calling a misdeal after substantial action has occurred.

Ya I don't have all my resources at my disposal, however, I have tracked down a few varying interpretations available to me online.
=========================================================================================================================
MISDEAL IF:

TDA  rules: Any two boxed cards on the initial deal is a misdeal. Once substantial action occurs the hand must play out.

European Poker Tour rules: If (a boxed card) discovered in the deck it is removed and treated as a non-existent card. Four or more boxed cards will result in the hand being misdealt. *Note it does not specify whether on the initial deal or during the hand in total and does not say if after substantial action whether or not to return all monies wagered.

International Poker rules (FIDPA): Upon the initial deal -  Two or more improperly faced cards are found. After the initial deal, a “misdeal” will only be declared in the event a “fouled deck” is found. Once action has occurred, a “misdeal” cannot be declared.

RRoP rules: Two or more boxed (improperly faced) cards are found. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled.

Rules of Poker by Chuck Ferry: Two or more boxed (improperly faced) cards are found. The hand is declared a misdeal and all monies are returned to all players.

Venetian Room rules: More than one boxed card on the initial dealing round is a misdeal. Three (3) or more boxed cards appearing in the course of playing a hand (not including within the remaining deck after all cards have been distributed) is a misdeal.

The ROPE: Presence of two or more boxed cards during the deal. A misdeal cannot be called once substantial action has occurred. The deal will be played and no chips will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled.

WSOP: Surprisingly misdeals relating to boxed cards are not covered in WSOP tournament  rules. They are covered in "live action" rules and reflect RRoP and ROPE.
==========================================================================================================================

Still wondering why two (2) boxed cards and not just one (1) on the initial deal? Nip the headache in the butt and redeal the hand. JMO. Your going to redeal in stud, I don't see why not to redeal in Flop games  :-\
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K-Lo

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2012, 05:20:44 AM »
Still wondering why two (2) boxed cards and not just one (1) on the initial deal? Nip the headache in the butt and redeal the hand. JMO. Your going to redeal in stud, I don't see why not to redeal in Flop games  :-\

Really nice work on the research, Thomas.  This is a great example of why a unified set of rules is needed.

My guess is that the reason that a misdeal wouldn't be called unless two boxed cards are found on the initial deal is probably based on the same reason that they don't call a misdeal when just one card has been exposed by dealer error on the initial deal; it is likely just for game flow reasons - to keep the game going.  Perhaps a compromise by taking corrective action on one hand rather than killing potentially 9 other "good" hands, and upsetting players who may already have seen their hand and who will b**** when a misdeal is called.  

As I think about it some more though, I do feel that it is more likely that a boxed card found on the initial deal is a hint that the remainder of the deck is not in a perfect state, so even if the TD were permitted to check the remainder of the deck for additional boxed cards (which I would propose as a recommended procedure), if the first boxed card is found in the initial deal before action begins the hand would probably take just as long as it would take to redeal the hand.  So, I can accept that the boxed card situation is arguably a different type of situation than the situation where a deal flashes a card during the initial deal.  If you were to push for a change that any boxed card found during the initial deal is a misdeal, I would back you on that.  But I still wouldn't call a misdeal due to the presence of boxed cards once action has begun for the reasons I pointed out in my earlier post.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 05:31:41 AM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2012, 07:01:37 AM »
Thomas and Ken,

 I would not object to taking a good look at this rule (as we are) and coming to a solid answer. I can only confirm the inconsistencies that currently exist. It is not clear, as both of you have stated, whether another boxed card should be considered and looked for, once the first one appears. I know it would be a bit nerve racking continuing the deal with one boxed card already discovered. I always wondered, based on Chuck Ferry's excellent writing, if the last card on top of the deck after the river were dealt, and after one boxed card already discovered, (whew! can you follow?) if that would count as the second card? Boxed cards are very rare so that might have something to do with the lack of discussion on prior posts.

 I did find it interesting that there was no real mention of "substantial action" it was described as action from two player's that would allow the hand to play-out.

 I would be in favor of calling a mis-deal if a boxed card were discovered before the flop, or before all door cards are dealt in stud. Period. This would prevent a high percentage of the possibility for the second boxed card appearing. There are other serious consequences that boxed cards create. Saying they are non-existant and should be treated like a piece of paper does nothing to protect player's from the information obtained from an exposed card.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2012, 09:05:50 AM »
I think the current RROP provision for boxed cards is adequate:

1 Boxed Card is treated as a meaningless scrap and the deal continues, 2 or more and a mis-deal is called.

My interpretation is that RROP "Once action commences a mis-deal cannot be called" stands irrelevant of 2 or more boxed cards being discovered, and the hand should be played out, as "Once Action Occurs" is No 1 in the Irregularities Section so is an overriding consideration.

Regards
Stu
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Nick C

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2012, 12:58:02 PM »
Stuart,
 What is your definition of action? Also, do you rummage through the deck looking for another boxed card after the first one is exposed? Or, do you just play out the hand and hope that there are no others?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 02:28:48 PM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2012, 02:14:41 PM »
Action is prescribed by current TDA rules as 2 actions involving chips or 3 not.

I think you answered the second question yourself, by suggesting that anyone in their right mind would 'rummage' through the stub to identify the possibility of further boxed cards.

Regards
Stu
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Brian Vickers

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2012, 11:17:45 AM »
Action is prescribed by current TDA rules as 2 actions involving chips or 3 not.

I think you answered the second question yourself, by suggesting that anyone in their right mind would 'rummage' through the stub to identify the possibility of further boxed cards.

Regards
Stu

We do have a procedure in my cardroom where if a boxed card is discovered on the deal, the dealer will quickly fan the stub to see if any more boxed cards will appear and if there are any more we will call it a misdeal, if not the dealer picks up the stub and play continues.  If a boxed card is not found until after significant action (such as on the flop, turn or river) we do not call a misdeal, even if there are several in a row, we just keep going until an unboxed card is found. 
The boxed card is NOT treated the same as an exposed card, it is treated like it never existed, therefore the player with the boxed card will receieve the next card off the top of the deck.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2012, 04:44:36 PM »
I would be in favor of calling a mis-deal if a boxed card were discovered before the flop, or before all door cards are dealt in stud. Period. This would prevent a high percentage of the possibility for the second boxed card appearing. There are other serious consequences that boxed cards create. Saying they are non-existant and should be treated like a piece of paper does nothing to protect player's from the information obtained from an exposed card.

This is really the nuts and bolts of the argument Nick. Basically preventing substantial action from taking place on a deck that you already know is technically short (because of the exposed boxed card that cannot be reshuffled at any time if a situation for a reshuffle occurred).

Keep in mind I'm only talking about boxed cards on the deal during stud games that are delivered as the door card.

IMO, a boxed card on the deal (Stud) is changing the order of the bring-in. If we already call a misdeal for any exposed cards (boxed or flipped cards) that are dealt as down cards, why not the door card? The door card is part of the initial deal. The reason we call misdeals for exposed cards in stud is because it changes the order of the bring-in.

Well guess what folks, so does a boxed card on 3rd street.  ;)

I understand trying to continue play when substantial action has taken place. I get that. I agree play should continue, but only to a point. So the next question is, to what point?

This years WSOP rules set  says:

Rule 86 - Misdeals: In stud-type games, if any of the Participants' two down cards are exposed due to a dealer error, it is a misdeal. In flop games, exposure of one of the first two cards dealt is a misdeal. Participants may be dealt two consecutive cards on the button. The following situations may also be cause for a misdeal but are not limited to: a) two or more extra cards have been dealt, b) two or more boxed cards, c) the first card was dealt to the wrong position d) cards have been dealt to an empty seat or a Participant not entitled to a hand or e) a Participant has been dealt out who is entitled to a hand provided substantial action has not occurred. Substantial action is considered: three folds, three checks, or any two actions consisting of a check/bet/call/fold except for two folds or two checks.

There's no rule set that I've found other than the Venetian, that differentiates "On the Deal" and "During Play of the Hand". I think we should explore those options and incorporating some similar rule. Most only cover the deal meaning 'deal of down cards'.
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2012, 05:07:47 PM »
To further complicate the matter, here's a situation that happened recently at the MGM Challenge.

Seven Card Stud Hi/Lo during a HORSE event.

On the initial deal, a boxed card is discovered while dealing out the door cards. The TD treated it like a piece of paper (fairly standard, though I disagree) and play continued.
On 7th street with a player all-in, 4 way action, two more boxed cards appear. At this point in the hand, the deck is now 3 cards short.

Should play continue?
What are the consequences of play continuing?
What are the consequences of play not continuing?

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Nick C

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2012, 08:40:54 PM »
Hello Thomas,
 The rules pertaining to boxed cards will always cause confusion because we are asking players to not recognize a boxed card as an exposed card ??? A flipped card or a flashed card is considered exposed, a boxed card is treated as a non-existing card (even though everyone has seen it).

 I hope I can help clarify the differences. First, the exposure of one of the first two cards dealt in a flop game does not pertain to both of a players down cards, it refers to exposing one of the first two cards off the deck. Example: Flop game; dealer exposes either the first card dealt to the SB or the first card to the BB...this would call for a re-deal.

 My thoughts on boxed cards in stud games depends entirely on when they occur. A single boxed card on the initial deal (two down and the door card), does not change the bring in because it is not an exposed card, it's non-existent ??? This occurs before any action has taken place.

 Thomas, to answer your question about multiple boxed cards on 7th street.  I am against any re-deal if substantial action has occurred. Therefore, I am in favor of allowing players the option to declare themselves in for the pot, or the option to continue betting. I think this is the best way to protect any players from further damage caused by the dealer.  

 The consequences are:  If betting is suspended, The best hand will win, but the bluff is taken away.  
                                    If betting continues it could put players in an unfair advantage over others.


  
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 10:08:11 AM by Nick C »

Spence

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Re: Misdeals - Boxed cards
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2012, 04:11:58 PM »
Two small points.
If you found a boxed card during regular play after the initial dealout (as a burn card let's say) Would you still fan the deck out? My point being that if you are not definitely calling a misdeal than you are only giving more information away and causing further harm to the hand.

Thomas, to answer your question about multiple boxed cards on 7th street.  I am against any re-deal if substantial action has occurred. Therefore, I am in favor of allowing players the option to declare themselves in for the pot, or the option to continue betting. I think this is the best way to protect any players from further damage caused by the dealer. 

 The consequences are:  If betting is suspended, The best hand will win, but the bluff is taken away. 
                                    If betting continues it could put players in an unfair advantage over others.

Nick, I've taken issue with preventing more bets before but as I thought about it more it does make sense but only under the condition that the last card has been dealt and players have called all bets to legitimately see all cards. Only then would I restrict betting. In that circumstance the best hand does win. I would never restrict betting or allow a player to call himself all-in before calling to see all cards due to the fact that a bad draw will get to see free cards and has the potential to win over the currents best hand(on the turn or 5th street)