Author Topic: Action after wrong board card?  (Read 5279 times)

Nick C

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Action after wrong board card?
« on: April 11, 2012, 07:50:29 AM »
This actually happened in one of my poker dealing classes. I have to say that I've never seen this before. The game was $2 and $4 limit omaha 8. After the turn card
(4 handed). First player bets $4, next player raises to $8. Next player folds, next player calls and the original bettor calls. We have three players waiting for the river when one of the players notices that there are two cards stuck together (turn cards). Beneath the 10 of clubs was the deuce of hearts! The students asked what the ruling should be?

 I'll tell you what I decided, but I'd really like to hear from others first. Would your ruling be the same in a tournament?

chet

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 08:03:41 AM »
The deuce of hears should have been the burn card and the 10 of clubs should have been the next burn.  Obviously, at least to me, there has been substantial action based on the incorrect turn card, so I believe it has to stay.  To preserve the integrity of the river card, I would treat the deuce of hearts as an exposed burn card and let it stand.  The next card off the top of the deck would be the river.

Given that we should be doing all we can to preserve the integrity of the deck, I think I would rule exactly the same way in a tournament.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 08:10:08 AM »
Chet,
 I want to clarify the situation. the deuce of hearts should have been the proper turn card but the 10 of clubs was the card that everyone was betting on because they stuck together.

 
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 09:22:50 AM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 10:14:45 AM »
Nick:  Let me restate my first sentence so that it makes sense.  I originally wrote "The deuce of hears should have been the burn card and the 10 of clubs should have been the next burn." 

This should have said:

The deuce of hearts should have been the turn card and the 10 of clubs should have been the next burn.

In essence, the two cards we are talking about are "switched", with the pre-river burn card being used as the turn (10 of clubs) and the card that should have been the turn (deuce of hearts) being used as the burn.  The only other way to preserve the integrity of the river card would be to muck the deuce of hearts, not have a burn card between the turn and the river and use the top card off the stub as the river card (which is what it should be in the first place).

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2012, 12:27:17 PM »
Thanks Chet,
 What you wrote was what I did. I took the deuce of hearts (that should have been the turn) and used it as the final burn in order to preserve the proper river...whew! However, because there was action on the improper turn card, I suspended any further betting on the river.

Any different thoughts?

chet

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2012, 03:34:02 PM »
Nick:

I don't know that I would have suspended betting since the issue was discovered after all betting had been completed for the erroneous Turn card and the card used for the River was the card that would have come out anyway.  I don't necessarily disagree, but I don't see what suspending the betting accomplishes.  Had the problem been discovered before all betting was completed following the Turn, I could make a better case for bet suspension.

Chet

Spence

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2012, 03:39:22 PM »
The betting must stand on the improper turn card. The proper river card must be preserved as stated by Chet as well. Case in point, RRoP Irregularities:
16. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. On the last round, if there was no betting because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded, provided the deck stub, boardcards, and burncards are all sufficiently intact to determine the proper replacement card.
This is the rule behind the stuff that was already mentioned. I have a question for Nick as to why suspend betting on the river?


Damn you Chet! You beat me to the post! :'(
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 03:56:26 PM by Spence »

Nick C

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2012, 04:01:40 PM »
The reasoning for suspending the betting has more to do with the exposed card (the deuce) than anything else. Players now realize that the outcome would more than likely have resulted in a different winner, so rather than cost more financial damage to any player, I suspended the final betting round. That's my reason.

Spence

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2012, 04:14:36 PM »
The reasoning for suspending the betting has more to do with the exposed card (the deuce) than anything else. Players now realize that the outcome would more than likely have resulted in a different winner, so rather than cost more financial damage to any player, I suspended the final betting round. That's my reason.
How is this any different from the dealer accidentally burning and turning without finishing the betting? If we had to reshuffle a card we don't suspend betting on further streets do we? I hope not. I never have. Perhaps the proper turn card was not bet on but as Chet beat me to saying everyone acted on the card as if it were the proper card. If the Deuce had never been discovered then they would have been able to bet the river...

Nick C

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2012, 04:22:29 PM »
Spence,
 If you were holding the second nut hand, and the only card that could beat you were exposed prematurely by the dealer, I would appreciate the decision of no further betting. I've always been in favor of suspending the betting whenever cards are exposed. I've had too many bad experiences with players showing cards, and it's worse when the dealer does it.

chet

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2012, 05:22:09 PM »
Nick:  Do you suspend further betting anytime a card is exposed?  What about a card being exposed on the deal and then used as the burn?  I just don't see how this is justified when all betting on the round has been completed.

Sorry, but on this part of your example, we are going to have to agree to disagree I think.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2012, 06:25:10 PM »
Chet my decision is (in part) because of the late stage of the betting. To answer your question further...no I would not make the same ruling pre-flop because no action has taken place. My example is good use (IMO) for rule #1.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 06:30:59 PM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2012, 07:45:21 AM »
Hi all:

I agree with the way that the cards were handled (preserving the turn upon which action has occurred, and using the covered card as the final burn).

With respect, I would generally not be inclined to suspend the betting because of an exposed card.  I can sympathize with the argument that exposed cards could make a difference in the way that a hand might be played out, but that argument puts us on a slippery slope... it could happen with many types of irregularities, including prematurely exposing a turn/river card, not burning before the turn/river card is dealt or burning an extra card, even a player accidentally (or intentionally) exposing his cards, verbally or physically, late in the hand!  I wouldn't feel comfortable suspending all betting for all players every time there was an exposed card late in the hand... it would just happen too often.

Also, we can only assume that exposing the card made a difference to the hand.  It may not.  In fact, I would hazard a guess that often, the exposing of that one card late in the hand would NOT affect the outcome of the hand more likely than not.  We should also not assume that all players have made a hand at that point, which they wish to showdown.  Therefore, by suspending the betting, you may also end up drastically changing the natural course of the hand anyways.  You are essentially forcing a showdown of each player's hand with only four board cards showing.  This means that, for example:

1) If a player had already called the turn on a draw, he is now forced to showdown a busted draw and lose all his bets if he misses, and he won't get paid off a cent if the draw does come in.  If the pot is big, then this certainly would be unfair to the player, particular if the exposed card had no bearing on the hand whatsoever.  I would almost rather return all bets for the hand in this scenario than suspend the betting.  
2) If a player called the turn on a draw heavy board with the intention of shoving all-in if a scare card appears as a total bluff, he can no longer make the play, and again would be forced to showdown his junk, even when the exposed card had no bearing on the hand whatsoever.
3) If two people had already made strong hands but have been slow playing them (e.g. full house over full house on the flop), then the winning hand would not be entitled to make his final bet on the river and get called, even if the exposed turn card had no effect on the hands.

These are just a few examples.  In general, I don't think it's fair to assume that every exposed card would have materially affected the way that the hand would have played out, and certainly not enough to suspend the betting entirely for all players, particularly in this case where all players have seen the exposed card and have had the same amount of time to consider the information before the final betting round (though the information may help some players more than others).  

On the other hand, if somehow there has already been action on the final card and then another card gets exposed (i.e. at least one player did not have the benefit of seeing the card before acting), then in that case, I wouldn't object to giving the player who is at the disadvantage the option of declaring all-in for all bets (somewhat similar to a Stud situation where only one of two or more players get their final card dealt face-up accidentally and is at a disadvantage).

My two cents... K

« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 10:54:05 AM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2012, 05:26:25 PM »
K-Lo,
 I can agree with almost everything that you list as valid reasons for not suspending the betting in similar situations. I also like giving the option to declare yourself all-in as an alternative. However, I will stand by my decision to suspend betting when the dealer is responsible for a mistake of such magnatude that it could cost players their tournament lives, or great financial loss. Hopefully this is so rare that most of us will never experience such a blunder. As far as players that expose cards with action pending, that is a different situation that requires the most severe penalty that can be imposed...and yes, I have suspended further betting in those situations, too.

K-Lo

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Re: Action after wrong board card?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2012, 06:53:25 PM »
Hi Nick:

I have no problem with that.

Cheers
K