Author Topic: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in  (Read 8869 times)

Spence

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2012, 07:18:03 PM »
K-Lo, I would agree. It seems that the four card flop rule would definately be applicable to that situation. If faced with a scenario as like you've decscribed I will be ruling as per rule 33

Nick C

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2012, 08:47:16 AM »
K-Lo,
 In your first scenario, where the dealer fails to burn a card before the flop, and before action takes place, I would NOT use the next card as a four card flop situatuion. The next card, or the fourth card off the top, would have been one of the proper flop cards! This we know for sure, right? Consider the flop on the table has one card that should have been the burn. That's bad enough. To take the next card and scramble it into the incorrect flop will only compound the error and expose yet another card!

 Honestly, the error by the dealer is so critical to the outcome of the hand, I would actually be in favor of a misdeal. I know, I know there will be all kinds of complaints and many will not agree and I can't say that I'd blame them but, the redeal might be the best solution.

 Once substantial action takes place, after the flop with no burn, I would be in favor of burning two cards in tandem before placing the turn card on the table. This would assure the proper turn and river.

 My biggest argument against rules regarding skipped burn cards or placing too many cards on the table before they are flopped is; when we know which card should be returned to the deck, and the rules tell us we still can't retract it!
 

 

K-Lo

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2012, 09:25:34 AM »
K-Lo,
 In your first scenario, where the dealer fails to burn a card before the flop, and before action takes place, I would NOT use the next card as a four card flop situatuion. The next card, or the fourth card off the top, would have been one of the proper flop cards! This we know for sure, right? Consider the flop on the table has one card that should have been the burn. That's bad enough. To take the next card and scramble it into the incorrect flop will only compound the error and expose yet another card!

Thanks, Nick.  First, with respect, I would never call a misdeal.  I think it is too drastic of an action in general, given that most of the proper flop is still preserved.  We should always be striving to play hands to completion, particularly since there has already been betting action in the hand; if I had to choose between a misdeal or a reshuffling of the flop, I would choose the latter.  Thankfully, those are not the only alternatives.

However, I do agree that it actually makes more intuitive sense that the fourth card (which we would know would have been part of the flop) be used, and the current flop scrambled to remove one as the burn (again assuming we didn't know which one the proper burn was to fix it).  At least then we have a 1/3 chance of actually having the flop that was supposed to come out.  

I guess as a practical matter though, there isn't a basis for this in the current rules.  RROP says we must reshuffle, and TDA only provides for a four-card flop shuffle.  So of the two, I think the four-card approach is preferable, if we are forced to choose.  

That being said, I don't actually think simply using the four-card approach in this situation is that bad.  By taking the next card and scrambling it into the original flop, we aren't really "compounding the error" as you might suggest because the fourth card that might be exposed is the same card that you would have exposed and kept on the new flop had you performed the three card scramble anyways.  In fact, I believe that if you work out the math, 75% of the time when using the four-card scramble, you will get the same result as if you had used a three-card scramble.  

For example:  Suppose A, B, C are on the flop, D is on the deck.  The flop should have been B, C, D with A as the burn.

1.  Three-card scramble - keeping D on the new flop
- 1/3 of the time, new flop will be A, B, D
- 1/3 of the time, new flop will be A, C, D
- 1/3 of the time, new flop will be B, C, D

2.  Four-card scramble - mix D with old flop
- 1/4 of the time, new flop will be A, B, D
- 1/4 of the time, new flop will be A, C, D
- 1/4 of the time, new flop will be B, C, D
- 1/4 of the time, new flop will be A, B, C

If you compare, you will see that that two approaches largely give the same results, except that in the four-card scramble, you may get the original flop back 1 in 4 times.  I don't think that is a huge deal though, since it happens relatively infrequently; the good thing is that D will still remain hidden, no new cards have been exposed, and all players are at an equal disadvantage.  

In summary, I think the four-card scramble is an acceptable alternative to the three-card scramble, allows us to point directly to an existing TDA rule when we use it, and as Stuart points out earlier in the post, it is just that much simpler to implement in practice.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 09:28:15 AM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2012, 09:49:59 AM »
K-Lo,
 I will not disagree with your calculations. I do however think that once the incorrect flop has been turned, reshuffling the next card with the incorrect flop risks the possibility of exposing yet another different card. Unless I am wrong. The good news is, it is a mistake that few good dealers will ever experience.

K-Lo

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 12:23:28 PM »
Fair enough, Nick.  But I guess the end result is that most of us agree that we would tend not to reshuffle the flop into the deck in this specific scenario (no burn card & cannot tell which should have been the burn & no action yet on the flop)... yes?  (i.e. we are not following RROP in this situation - was this TDA's official stance when coming up with the 4-card flop rule)?

K-Lo

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Re: an extra burn card after flop...2 players all-in
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2012, 10:35:49 PM »
How about modifying the four-card flop rule to allow for a scramble of only the three board cases (draw two, and use the next card in the deck for the flop) in cases where there was no accidentally no burn card before the flop?