Author Topic: Raise 1000.....on top!  (Read 3805 times)

pastateke

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Raise 1000.....on top!
« on: April 09, 2012, 01:38:36 PM »
Blinds are 200/400.....1 player limps sb says raise  1000 and as it is in the air (before it lands on the 200) he says on top.

Question arrises is it 1000, 1200 or 1400?

would it make a differance if it landed on the 200 then he said on top? Does hr even need to say on top? 

chet

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 01:51:07 PM »
Pastateke:

1st, welcome to the TDA Forum.  I am sure you will find the discussions interesting, informative, thought provoking and sometimes we even throw in some humor.

2nd, to get to your question, I think this can be resolved as follows (assuming we are talking about no-limit here): 

1)  The player uttered two words that, in my opinion, are the heart of the matter.  The first of these is the word "Raise", which means that he intends to raise the bet to him.  At the levels you described, the minimum total amount he has to put into the pot would be 800. 

2)  The second word he said was 1000.  To me this is very clear that he intends to raise the bet he is facing by 1000, for a total bet of 1400. 

3)  His final words "on top" are very ambiguous.  On top of what?  His small blind of 200 for a total of 1200 or on top of the bet he is facing 400 for a total of 1400.  Since he did not make his intentions clear, I would rule that he has to put a total of 1400 into the pot.

Chet

Spence

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 04:26:51 PM »
I agree with Chet that 1400 seems to make the most sense.
"Raise 1000" can be construed as two things depending on your players facility and rules. It can mean raise to 1000 or raise 1000 more. By adding in "on top" it should be simple enough to understand that this players intention is to raise 1000 more than the current bet or to 1400. Statements such as "on top" or raise this much "more" dictate that their raise is above whatever the current bet is. With the current bet being 400 the only logical answer is that the raise is to 1400.
As a side note, I would imagine that most TD's would agree that a bet with a chip in the air can still be changed until it hits the felt. Obviously some portion of it will be in the pot but a person who throws the chip in the air and calls "raise" before it hits the felt would not be a string raise.

Nick C

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 08:18:52 PM »
Pastateke,
 The SB said raise 1000 so my call is a total of 1400. The players verbal announcement of "raise 1000" overrides anything else that he might say or do after that. Players need to make their intentions clear, if you wanted to make the total bet anything other than 1400, say it the way you should. Changing the bet while the chip is in the air is difficult to do in the 2 seconds the chip is airborne. Verbal is binding and a 1000 raise of a 400 bet is 1400. The first thing I do when I'm dealing and something like that happens, is stop any action from the next player until the bet is clarified.

K-Lo

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 09:27:52 PM »
I concur with interpreting it as 1400 as well.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2012, 02:33:03 PM »
IMO "Raise 1000" is a raise of 1000 more, especially with the notation "on top" (generally meaning on top of the bet I'm facing)
"Raise to 1000" would be exactly that.
The problem of making it a hard rule is in a situation where a player goes: "raise... (stacks/fiddles with chips/long pause)... 1000".  Where the dealer can easily infer that the player was intending to make it 1000 total.  

Dealer and floor descretion is going to enter into it from time to time, but remember that if the intent is not clear between two amounts, that the lesser amount applies and if the player has a problem with that then they can just make their action more clearn next time :)

(To clarify though, in this case I agree with everyone that it would be a 1400 total bet)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 02:35:54 PM by Brian Vickers »

Spence

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2012, 03:54:17 PM »
Brian brings up a good point here about if the bet is misconstrrued then the lower amount is binding, but in this circumstance it looks like we are all in agreement that the bet is clearly 1400

Stuart Murray

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2012, 04:22:07 PM »
ditto, "on top" didn't really matter, 1,400 total is my ruling also.

Regards
Stu
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 08:04:09 AM »
Woooow ... nooo ... For the first time I'm alone in my side!

Maybe I don't get that english word (raise) but come on: everywhere when someone says "Raise ... 1000" it means a TOTAL of 1000 right?

And they say nothing or the TOTAL 95% of the time right? I'm very surprise of your common ruling and feel like I didn't get it for years LOL ?!?

We even have a rule stating that in case of unclear amount: the amount anounced is to be taken as the TOTAL if possible.

I agree with "Raise OF ... " or "Raise ... ON TOP " or anything and I agree that the new TDA rule accept things like "your 400 ... PLUS 1000" for exemple as long as the player clearly said "Raise" before it. But come on: "Raise ... 50000" is 50000 or I'm wrong from 5 years LOL!

???

GG
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 01:17:38 PM by Guillaume Gleize »

Nick C

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 08:18:09 AM »
GG,
 This was a problem that we went over on another post. I remember that you said a raise was always the total of the spoken amount, as you stated. However, that is incorrect everywhere else in the poker world! If a player bets $10 and the next player raises $10, the total is $20. What you are saying is; it would be a call ???

 Proper (in the USA) I bet $10...next player I call. That means he is calling the bet. In your cardroom; Player bets $10, next player says raise $20 only means that he raised $10!
That is not correct. I know the english language is very difficult but in this case the translation needs to be fixed. A raise (according to Webster's Dictionary): To increase another player's bet in poker.

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 01:32:13 PM »
I got it ... and maybe in fact my country translated differently from years.

Here if someone bets 10 you will never ever see someone behind saying "raise 10" ... but "call" or "raise 20" (for 10 more).

If we ear "raise 10" we oblige the player to minraise at 20 (10 more)!

The amount is allways the total unless you are clear AND announce "raise" before!

OK now I get it ... international misunderstanding.

But if the next days I see on a major american poker TV show someone saying "Raise 50.000" while pushing the exact total of 50.000 with no reaction from the dealer neither the players ...
I'm sorry but you will see me coming back here again with my stupid foreigner questions!

 ;D
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 01:33:51 PM by Guillaume Gleize »

Nick C

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 02:54:14 PM »
Guillaume,
 If you do see someone saying "raise 50,000" while pushing the exact amount of 50,000 with no reaction from the dealer or the player's, then they need to be corrected. There are many, many circumstances when your interpretation of the understanding of raise is intended to be be...just what you said, a raise to the total spoken amount. When I deal no limit, and a player announces his raise I like to freeze the action of the next player until I have clarification on the intended amount of the raise. I know it sounds difficult but after years of dealing it becomes "second nature" and you can almost feel what the raiser wanted to bet. Player A bets 500. If Player B says raise 1000, it brings the total bet to 1500. The problem is when the next player says raise again...this is when the clear intent of the original raiser has to be sorted out.

 We need to teach the players, as well as the dealers, that if they do not make their actions perfectly clear, there are consequences.

 One more note for clarification. If Player A bets 500 and the next player wants to raise to 1500, he must either push 1500 into the betting area, or say; raise TO 1500, (which translates to 1000 more), because if he says raise 1000 it would be understood to be 1500 and not 1000.  I hope this makes sense. 

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 03:20:20 PM »
TY Nick.

Just the last sentence isn't clear please:
 
One more note for clarification. If Player A bets 500 and the next player wants to raise to 1500, he must either push 1500 into the betting area, or say; raise TO 1500, (which translates to 1000 more), because if he says raise 1000 it would be understood to be 1500 and not 1000.  I hope this makes sense.  
I think you made a little error because you say "If ... want to raise to 1500, he must (do this or that) because if (not) it would be understood to be 1500" ... So what ?

Sorry but I'm lost on that one! (but I got your main message and word translation TY)

 ???
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 03:23:11 PM by Guillaume Gleize »

Nick C

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Re: Raise 1000.....on top!
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 08:20:55 PM »
GG,
 I'm not doing a good job on my translation. If a player bets 500 and the next player wants to raise 1000 that means he is betting 1000 more than the 500...so total is 1500
If a player bets 500 and the next player wants to raise to 1000 (the word "to" translates to "up to" which indicates the total bet of 1000, or 500 more). Wow, I'm confusing myself!     

  When a player says raise and then mentions the amount, the amount stated is the amount added to the bet. If a player raises "up to"or "to" a specific amount, that is the combined amount of the bet and the raise. I know it must be confusing but, that little word (to) can make a big difference.

 Following the 500 bet, your example of raise 1000 would be like a player saying "let's make it 1000!" Or "let's bring it up to 1000!" I feel as though I'm saying the same thing over and over again, but that's all I have for now.