Author Topic: Wrong Burn Card used on the flop  (Read 3442 times)

PokerChip

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Wrong Burn Card used on the flop
« on: January 25, 2010, 07:16:03 AM »
i run a home League... we have 46 players and the NLHE tournaments are held once a month and are self dealt. In the last game at one of the tables: There was a card that flipped up on the deal and was therefore supposed to be used as the burn card for the flop. Needless to say, the dealer Burned an additional card and then put out the flop. There was no way to retrieve the mistaken Burn card as it was mixed into the rest of the muck on the table, so what is the correct action from this point? We ruled that the flop stays as is, the turn is dealt WITHOUT a burn card (because technically this would have been the turn and the last card of the flop would have been the burn) and then there is a burn and then the river card. Is this correct?

pokerfish

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Re: Wrong Burn Card used on the flop
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2010, 09:06:56 AM »
I am not sure I understand your question correctly. If the card that was to be used as the burn has been buried, you can still find it since it was exposed. That aside, if it is mucked, you could put out the flop without a burn card to retain the integrity of the deck. If the 3 cards are put out with another burn card and there has been no action, I would treat it as a 4 card flop situation and scramble all three flop cards and the new burn card face down and then have an arbitrary person select one (at random) to be used as the burn and then the other three are the flop and then the hand progresses as usual. This way you've retained the flop as best you can.... the way you are suggesting is likely the next best as you don't change the river and turn but I like fixing a problem ASAP. Of course if action has occurred then the flop as it lies stays....
Jan Fisher
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PokerChip

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Re: Wrong Burn Card used on the flop
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2010, 09:59:17 AM »
Thanks for the response Jan. The issue was that there were technically TWO cards burned before the flop. The card that was misdealt (which was supposed to be the burn card) and then the dealer burned another card before he put out the flop. The additional burn card could not be retrieved as it was thrown among the other cards in teh muck. It was an All-in situation with 3 players all in before the flop. Thanks for the advice

pokerfish

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Re: Wrong Burn Card used on the flop
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2010, 10:12:50 AM »
Aha, I think I see what you're saying. In this case, I'd take the 3 board cards and the additional burn card and scramble them, having the floor arbitrarily choose one. I'd make the other three the flop and the one chosen the second burn card... I'd let everyone see which card it was since some may have had that info.
Hope this helps. It maintains the most correctness possible IMO.
Jan
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Wrong Burn Card used on the flop
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2010, 10:20:08 AM »
ditto Jan's reply, if the error is spotted before action has taken place on the board cards it can be treated as a four card flop, you don't necessarily need to locate the original burn card, simply counting the muck face down to ensure their is one too many cards there will verify the flop error.  The flop could then be rectified.

In the case where action has already occured on the flop it would stand and you would omit to burn a card for the turn.  For the integrity of the game it is essential that any further cards are the correct cards that would of been dealt had the error not occured.

Best Regards
Stuart
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PokerChip

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Re: Wrong Burn Card used on the flop
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2010, 02:01:41 PM »
ditto Jan's reply, if the error is spotted before action has taken place on the board cards it can be treated as a four card flop, you don't necessarily need to locate the original burn card, simply counting the muck face down to ensure their is one too many cards there will verify the flop error.  The flop could then be rectified.


Stuart, what do you mean when you say that "you don't necessarily need to locate the original burn card"? Are you suggesting we choose a random card from the muck and mix it with the flop, then choose one of the 4 cards as the burn and spread the flop again? There was no way for us to accurately choose the correct card that was "Supposed" to be the first card of the flop. The issue was that there were 2 cards burned before the flop...

Stuart Murray

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Re: Wrong Burn Card used on the flop
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2010, 03:09:37 PM »
Pokerchip - When referring to the the original burn card I mean the card which should have been used as the first burn card (not the card that has been burned) i.e. the card which has been inadvertantly mixed with the muck pile.

eg. a card is exposed during hole card deal and then mucked with the rest of the passed hands, the first card which should be used as a board card is then burned in error.  to verify the card that was exposed is in the muck pile we can count the amount of folds x 2 to give a cumulative total of mucked cards, the muck should then contain one too many cards, which verifies the location of the exposed card.  The incorrectly burned first card can then be scrambled with the other four cards from the flop and a new flop constituted with the remaining card  then used for the burn card on the turn.

Apologies for not being sufficiently clear!

Best Regards
Stuart
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 04:45:44 PM by stuamurr »
Stuart Murray
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chet

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Re: Wrong Burn Card used on the flop
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2010, 06:08:10 PM »
For the most part I agree with Jan and Stuart, however, there are some unique problems here that differ from a game with a professional dealer:

1.  Since the game is "Self-dealt" or "Player Dealt" it would be impossible to retrieve the flipped up card (which should have been the pre-flop burn) without giving an advantage to someone at the table.  Who would go through the deck and find that card without gaining an advantage over the other players?  Someone has to see the cards in order to find it.

2.  Since the 2nd pre-flop burn was also placed into the muck there is no way to identify that card so there is no way one can apply the TDA Four Card Flop rule. 

3.  The correct or 'best' solution is one that most closely matches as many of the correct cards as possible.  If one numbers the 8 cards that constitute the burn and board cards, 1 through 8, Card 1 would be the preflop burn, Cards 2, 3 & 4 would be the flop, Card 5 the burn before the Turn, Card 6 is the Turn, Card 7 is the burn before the River and finally Card 8 is the River. 

In this situation, as I understand it, Card 1 is flipped and placed into the muck, Card 2 is erroneously mucked as the "Pre-Flop" Burn, Cards 3, 4 and 5 are now the flop.  It is unclear whether there is any "action".  In my opinion, in this particular situation, it makes no difference since neither Card 1 or Card 2 can be retrieved without someone involved in the game gaining an advantage (remember the game is self-dealt).  So to this point two of the three cards in the flop are 'correct', but card 5 is not.  I don't see any possible way to correct the flop at this point, action or not. 

Continuing, the closest way to match the remaining board cards is to do exactly what Pokerchip did, rule that Card 2 will be considered the "Pre-Turn" Burn and continue on with Card 6 being the Turn, Card 7 being the "Pre-River" Burn and Card 8 being the River.  I believe this solution is the best match to the what should have been correct cards.

One way to alleviate this problem is to have your games place the "burn" cards under the chips in the pot which should be completely separate from the muck.  That way the Burn cards can be identified as they are not "in the muck" until after the River is on the board.

Hopes this helps!!