Author Topic: Minimum Raise on a straddle  (Read 9577 times)

Spence

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Minimum Raise on a straddle
« on: March 31, 2012, 06:10:19 PM »
There has been a lot of talk about this one for a while at my location. I am partial to one way and our last manager wanted to go in the other direction. I am just wondering what the bulk of rooms do.
What is the minimum raise with a live $5 straddle on a 1-2 NL game? I'd also like the why as I will be putting forth some info to management if I get the answer I hope to see.

Nick C

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2012, 07:37:25 PM »
I'd say $8, because the straddle was $3 more than the $2 BB. * This answer is open for debate. I based this answer as if it were a limit game. My explanation will follow.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 04:25:07 AM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2012, 08:51:45 PM »
Nick:

When you say $8 is that a total bet of $8 or a raise of $8 for a total bet of $13?

Isn't the straddle amount defined as double the BB?  If so, the $5 amount is incorrect.  The straddle be should be $4.

Spence: 

Do you have a House Rule that defines the amount of a straddle or re-straddle?  Some places define the straddle as double the BB and the re-straddle as double the straddle.  What have you?  If nothing, then I suggest you come up with a new house rule.  You can do either, but you need to define in your House Rules.

Chet

Spence

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2012, 09:43:10 PM »
In our house rule for 1-2 no limit hold'em you may straddle for $4 or $5. The issue I have is with my house rule. I want to hear what others are doing and the reasoning behind. Like what Nick said with $8 because it is $3 more than the BB of $2.

Nick C

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2012, 03:53:51 AM »
Chet and Spence,
 If we look at the straddle as not being a blind raise, you could accept that it must double the BB. There were only two options; 1) double the BB or 2) raise the min $3... so my original suggestion was a total of $8. Although, you are correct about the straddle being double the BB. So...upon further review because you usually don't see a straddle in no limit not double the BB (at least I don't), double the BB might be the correct answer. In Spences' game the straddle is nothing more than a blind raise that takes the last raise option away from the BB because it doesn't affect the raise limit. The $5 made me think any size bet (UTG) was acceptable. Interesting way to loosen up a game. I can almost see Spences game turning into an automatic three blind game! Where do these reckless dudes hang-out? ;D Sounds like fun.
 In a normal straddle situation, with SB $1 and BB $2 the straddle would be $4 and the raise option would be double the straddle. This is confusing. The best way to explain it is to look at the straddle as a FULL KILL. If you do it that way, the next player wishing to raise the $5 straddle must go to $10. It will make the rules easy to explain and understand. Your straddle is a full kill...
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 04:56:51 AM by Nick C »

Nick C

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2012, 05:09:23 AM »
Spence,
 Can I change my first answer? Make the first raise double the straddle, period. I do have one suggestion for you. Make the straddle a fixed amount instead of offering an option ($4 or$5). Then the next raise would double the straddle to either $8 or $10 every time. I really like the "full kill" comparison.

 My original reply would better fit a limit game. Sorry for the confusion.

Spence

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2012, 03:59:36 PM »
I like the line that you're on with the "kill" idea. That does make some logical sense. Unfortunately right now we do offer either a $4 or $5 straddle. My issue is that I never believed that a straddle was a new blind. It seemed much more to me like a blind raise with option. I would like to see the minimum raise be to $6 or $8 respectively. I’m old school in that regard. Any raise must be the difference between the last bets.

Nick C

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2012, 05:30:39 PM »
Spence,
 I would have no problem thinking along those lines...but that is better for limit because you can not change the limit of the game. In other words, in a game with blinds of $3 and $5 the Straddle is $10 (no problem, same as no limit), but the next raise can not exceed the limit of the game so it can only be to a total of $15. This is what separates limit from no limit. So...if you want the no limit to not be considered a blind raise, you should allow the next raise after the straddle to double the straddle. In the scenario above it would be to $20. I hope I've explained it so it can be understood. Whatever you decide, be consistant and if the player's like it, you are doing it right!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 08:18:56 AM by Nick C »

Spence

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2012, 07:50:25 PM »
Waste of a post...
I just found this thread. Maybe I should do a bit of digging first next time.
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=135.0

Nick C

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2012, 06:05:59 AM »
Spence,
 I'm curious as to what set of rules you applied in your cardroom for the first raise after the straddle?

Spence

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2012, 09:44:45 PM »
Unfortunately I was not here when several rules were put in place. It has ben like pulling teeth to try and get management on board with the changes. Currently we double the straddle as the minimum raise. It took me several months to get the whole team to understand no limit raising rules. I'd like to change the minimum to be the difference so it is the same for ALL raises, including the straddle. Right now it is the only exception and people are still getting confused and arguing...

Brian Vickers

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2012, 01:54:38 PM »
At my casino the straddle sets a new bring in on NL games, so on a $1-2 game with a $5 straddle (not optional, it's always $5 if you straddle) the minimum raise is to $10.  On a $2-5NL game the straddle is $10 and the minimum raise is to $20.
At my previous card room, however, the straddle counted as a raise and so on a $1-2 game the straddle was $5 and the min raise was to $8.

As the house makes money off of rake, and the bigger the pots the more we rake, wouldn't it be in our best interest to have rules in place that increase the size of the pots and speed up the game? 
Ex.  If on a $1-2 game with $5 straddle we allow a min raise to $8 and 4 players go to the flop, we've got a $32 pot with a $3 rake.  If the minimum raise is to $10 and someone raises to that amount and 4 players see the flop, then we've got a $40 pot with a $4 rake.  Not only that, but we have all the time we spent making change for all those players added in as well. 

There are problems either way because of "clever players” (in quotations because you know the type I'm talking about.  If the minimum raise after a straddle is double the straddle, then "Clever players" will point out that on a $1-2 game with a $5 the difference is $3 therefore the raise should be $3 more to $8 and we have to explain it to them that that is how it works here..  If the straddle is incremental and we allow the raise to be to $8, then the “clever player” types will try to point out that the previous bet was $5 and the raise should have to be $5 more.  Either way, someone at the table will waste your time by trying to argue the other way.  They will usually say “every casino in the world does it the other way” (Tell me how many times a week you guys here that, amiright?).  The fact is that every poker room manager is going to think his way is the best way, and in the end it doesn’t really make much of a difference.  The only thing important is that the rules are clear to all members of staff, and that everyone stays consistent on it and is able to quickly explain why something is a certain way without slowing down the action.


Nick C

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2012, 08:01:44 AM »
Brian,
 You mentioned; "At my previous card room, however, the straddle counted as a raise and so on a $1-2 game the straddle was $5 and the min raise was to $8."
I can agree if the game were limit only. A NL game should always require a double the straddle from the next player. There is no limit on raises for NL. Sounds like your old cardroom just considered it a blind raise...was it live?

 You do point out that the important thing is staff members stay consistent and rules are clear, but they better do a good job of explaining the rules to new player's because they do not follow any straddle rules that I know of.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2012, 11:34:41 AM »
Brian,
 You mentioned; "At my previous card room, however, the straddle counted as a raise and so on a $1-2 game the straddle was $5 and the min raise was to $8."
I can agree if the game were limit only. A NL game should always require a double the straddle from the next player. There is no limit on raises for NL. Sounds like your old cardroom just considered it a blind raise...was it live?

 You do point out that the important thing is staff members stay consistent and rules are clear, but they better do a good job of explaining the rules to new player's because they do not follow any straddle rules that I know of.


If it's $8 OK, or if it's $10 OK, I don't feel too strongly one way or the other.  What I meant was that if it's $8 or $10 then it needs to always be either $8 or $10 and not $8 for this dealer or floor and $10 for this dealer or floor.  Our rule here is clearly posted "Sets a new minimum bring-in"

Stuart Murray

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Re: Minimum Raise on a straddle
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2012, 08:09:18 AM »
A straddle should not be treated as a raise of the BB, a straddle as per RROP set's a new minimum bet for that round, with the straddle in the queston being $5, the first open can either call $5, pass or raise a minimum of $5 to $10 total.

Interesting that it is $5, RROP states

"15. In non-tournament games, one optional live straddle is allowed. The player who posts the straddle has last action for the first round of betting and is allowed to raise. To straddle, a player must be on the immediate left of the big blind, and must post an amount twice the size of the big blind. A straddle bet sets a new minimum bring-in; it is not treated as a raise."

Which by the book means the straddle in a $1/$2 should be $4.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director