Author Topic: binding or not?  (Read 7241 times)

markmagic

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binding or not?
« on: March 04, 2012, 08:11:29 AM »
texas hold em $10-20 blinds

player A raise $50 and player B and C call then SB didnt notice that the pot was raised
he just put $10... is it binding?

chet

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 09:08:15 AM »
Markmagic:  I think we need some additional information in order to make an informed response.  For example,

1.  Did player A verbally announce his raise or just put $50 into the pot?
2.  Did the dealer verbally announce player A's raise or just let it slide?
3.  Are there any other factors that would explain, either for or against, why the SB did not know about the raise?

If you can provide more information, we can provide a better answer.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 04:52:21 PM »
Because this is posted under "cash games" I would allow the player to retract the $10 and fold leaving the SB only in the pot.

Stuart Murray

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2012, 10:05:05 AM »
In my cash games yes, the $10 has to stay in as it is the players responsibility to keep abreast of current action, some will allow the SB to 'retract and re-consider' his actions (as Nick has stated above) it's really a decision for your house rules.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
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markmagic

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 11:42:30 AM »
thank you so much guys

Spence

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2012, 06:56:32 PM »
Our house rule would bind it as the bet was called in turn. Even though it is the wrong bet amount if it was put into the pot in turn, it is binding. To echo Stuart, players have to be aware of what is happening at the table.

Nick C

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2012, 07:15:21 PM »
Spence,
 Really? in a cash game? Wow, you guys are tough.

K-Lo

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 10:13:26 AM »
Our house rule would bind it as the bet was called in turn. Even though it is the wrong bet amount if it was put into the pot in turn, it is binding. To echo Stuart, players have to be aware of what is happening at the table.

Spence - I assume that when you say "binding"' you mean that the money that was put into the pot stays in, but the player can still fold (I.e. he would NOT be forced to call the full 50).

Nick C

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2012, 07:45:21 AM »
K-Lo, Spence, Mark, Stuart and Chet,
 I thought I'd address the group that responded to this question. In all of the years of training dealers I have always advised them to  encourage players at their table to clarify their intentions. One of the issues that I've experienced is the players that say nothing, and just push their bet forward.  As a dealer and a player, I've always preferred the players that clearly announce their action, especially the amount they intend on betting. The rules however, do not promote verbal declarations. Consider the player who announces a call on an incorrect bet of $20, when there was a $100 raise in front of him that he somehow missed. If he pushed his $20 forward without saying anything, he might be allowed to retract his wager...right? However, if the same player announced a call, he might be committed to the full bet.  If a player behind him acts, then he's really in trouble. This is why I disagree so often with the strict rules used in tournament play. I always go back to some of the older rules that don't have reference numbers but are under rules of etiquette and ethics. If the player obviously had no intention of calling a raise, is it in the best interest of the game to force him to call?

 The point I'm trying to make is, the rules do not encourage saying anything and I can understand why some players don't say a word. Perhaps we should play "mum poker,"
(don't laugh), I actually played in a house game where players were charged $$$ any time they spoke.

 I like it when players and dealers announce bets and raises but I think many rules support the opposite.

 How do you feel? I want to encourage clarity, but is it wise for players to comply with verbal declarations? The risks can be too great.

Stuart Murray

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2012, 10:16:21 AM »
I have no problems with silent action.  Poker is indeed a game of alertness and observation, players making declaring their action is just another tell, for example someone who announces raise in a stern voice and then on the next occasion announces raise with a slight squawk or squeak, gives everybody at the table who is paying attention more information to formulate a range.

I know of a few places that actively require players to announce everything, but IMO the game suffers as a result, I always find it best for players to learn how to bet and raise using their chips, rather than their voices.

Regards
Stu
Stuart Murray
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National Tournament Director

Spence

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 06:13:05 PM »
Our house rule would bind it as the bet was called in turn. Even though it is the wrong bet amount if it was put into the pot in turn, it is binding. To echo Stuart, players have to be aware of what is happening at the table.

Spence - I assume that when you say "binding"' you mean that the money that was put into the pot stays in, but the player can still fold (I.e. he would NOT be forced to call the full 50).
You are correct. The amount is bound to the pot. A call is not binding. Unless of course verbalized
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 09:36:51 PM by Spence »

W0lfster

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2012, 05:11:31 AM »
I think binding would also fall under the category of whther the player is experienced or not. It would be a bit harsh IMO to forfeit the 10 is they arent experienced. This is a grey area however.

Nick C

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2012, 05:41:31 AM »
Wolfster,
 This is similar to another recent post that you responded to, yet on one you want to commit a player to his action, and on this one you want to give him some slack if he's inexperienced. I agree with you but, rules don't separate experienced player's from new ones. This is when the decision of the floor should be based on any number of circumstances, and (as you've stated) the player's experience (and reputation) could be a factor when making your call. Like I said, I agree with you but so many other's do not.

 Do you feel different because this is a cash game?

W0lfster

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2012, 08:16:37 AM »
No I do not feel different because its a cash game, and you are entitled to your opinions but I feel experience counts towards every aspect. Apologies for not putting it in previous posts.

Brian Vickers

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Re: binding or not?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2012, 01:56:24 PM »
I would rule that the player must either call $50 total OR forfeit his extra $10 and fold.  I would make this rule every single time.