Author Topic: Is the blind calling or raising  (Read 3786 times)

mooredog

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Is the blind calling or raising
« on: December 05, 2011, 10:22:46 AM »
I know we've discussed this but I can't find it. There is a raise and one of the blinds throws out a single oversize chip but doesn't pick up the existing chips that were posted as a blind and with the oversize chip the total adds up to more than halfway to a raise or maybe even all the way to a raise. We had a big blind at 200 who tossed out a 1000 chip and didn't pick up her 200 chips when she faced a raise to 600. Call or raise? A lot of players will toss out the big chip, then pick up the existing blind chips fairly quickly (in a second or two) and we rule it a call, but if they let it sit we rule it a raise and some players protest that they were only calling. Any comments on this?

Nick C

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Re: Is the blind calling or raising
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2011, 01:08:41 PM »
Train the dealers to stop any further action and clarify the action. If the bettor says nothing the dealer should toss the other chips back to the player and say, "call."
Short answer...it's a call.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 12:01:10 PM by Nick C »

Spence

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Re: Is the blind calling or raising
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2011, 05:54:48 PM »
If it's not verbalized it is a call.
38: Oversized Chip Betting
Anytime when facing a bet or blind, placing a single oversized chip in the pot is a call if a raise isnít first verbally declared. To raise with an oversized chip, raise must be declared before the chip hits the table surface. If raise is declared (but no amount), the raise is the maximum allowable for that chip. When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.

JasperToo

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Re: Is the blind calling or raising
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2011, 09:38:04 AM »
+1

Nick C

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Re: Is the blind calling or raising
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2011, 02:33:37 PM »
Spence,
 I have a question that might need clarification. I don't have the rule in front of me but I know it's out there. In stud, when bringing it in, an oversized chip without a declaration is the required bring-in, and not the size of the chip. Example, seven card stud, spread limit 1 to 5...bring-in 1. Low player tosses a single 5 chip into the bet area. Even though it would contradict the oversize chip rule, the bet is not considered 5, it is automatically the size of the bring-in...1 (one).

Am I correct or is this a cash game only rule?

This is the part of the rule that needs clarification: When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.

K-Lo

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Re: Is the blind calling or raising
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2011, 10:45:08 PM »
This is an interesting questions and brings back memories to those pre-holdem days...  ;)

I can't point to any explicit rule, but this was always my interpretation.  To me, it always made sense that throwing the 5 in without a verbal declaration is treated as 1, because it is not really a situation when you are not facing a bet.  If your options are check or bet, then the oversized chip betting rule clearly applies.  But in this case, your options are not to check or bet, but to bring-in or complete, which is different.  The complete is essentially a voluntary "raise" of your own "bring-in" to the minimum wager for that round, which you can opt to do, but since it is still effectively a raise, you must verbalize the complete when a single chip is used to avoid just being a call.   

Perhaps another way of thinking about is that the "bring-in" is like putting in the bb blind in hold'em terms; if you put in a 5 chip in hold'em as your BB when the BB should be posting $1, and at no point do you verbalize raise, you are only in for $1.

Nick C

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Re: Is the blind calling or raising
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 09:30:21 AM »
K-lo,
 You are correct. Now I know of at least two people that are aware of that rule. It is not clarified in the single oversized chip rule though, is it?
How's this: Except for the bring-in for stud when the oversized chip will be recognized as the required bring-in only.

K-Lo

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Re: Is the blind calling or raising
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 10:17:38 AM »
I can't be certain it was ever an explicit rule anywhere though, and I know that some people argue that it should be a complete because it is still the initial bet for that person (which I don't agree with).  RROP 7cs Rule 3 says that the player with the forced bet has the OPTION of opening for a full bet.  In my view, in order to exercise that option, you should be obliged to verbalize it if the wager using chips alone is ambiguous.


Stuart Murray

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Re: Is the blind calling or raising
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2011, 01:39:55 PM »
Single chip is a call, regardless of what the player has already posted in subsequent rounds of betting.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
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South Scotland &
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Nick C

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Re: Is the blind calling or raising
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2011, 02:41:08 PM »
Stuart,
 We might not be explaining the situation correct but there is no bet in front of the player. We are just trying to sort out the difference between a player initiating a bet and having it count as a wager as opposed to a player tossing the red $5 cheque in a cash game where the bring in is only $1. Without declaration it is a $1 bring-in, unlike the no-limit where it is recognized as the full amount of the cheque. I hope this makes sense.

Spence

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Re: Is the blind calling or raising
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2011, 05:16:32 PM »
Spence,
 I have a question that might need clarification. I don't have the rule in front of me but I know it's out there. In stud, when bringing it in, an oversized chip without a declaration is the required bring-in, and not the size of the chip. Example, seven card stud, spread limit 1 to 5...bring-in 1. Low player tosses a single 5 chip into the bet area. Even though it would contradict the oversize chip rule, the bet is not considered 5, it is automatically the size of the bring-in...1 (one).

Am I correct or is this a cash game only rule?

This is the part of the rule that needs clarification: When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.

Same as K-lo's answer here. We've always had it as just the bring in. The player had to verbalize to raise. Ante and bring-in games are the only thing that comes to mind on the exception.