Author Topic: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot  (Read 5360 times)

tgren

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Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« on: January 18, 2010, 12:39:23 PM »
This happened in a NL Holdem Tournament recently:
A player in early position was first to bet and one more player called. The original raiser was wearing a mp3 player while playing.
After the flop, the original raiser bets a pot-sized bet and is sitting motionless and looking towards the felt inside the circle for the other player.
After no visible action and over a minute passed, the motionless player is requesting clock.
The countdown is completed and the second player is getting the pot.

When he takes off his headphones and asking what is going on, the dealer stated that the other player said "All-in" and that the clock was for the original betting player. No chips were ever moved towards the centre of the table, nor were there any All-in badges in play. The floor-person was called over and ruled in favor for the person who announced All in verbally but never moved any chips.

Was this correct move from the house and if not, how should the house have dealt with the situation? ???

pokerfish

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Re: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2010, 02:34:57 PM »
I am sorry but I am not clear on the situation. If you are saying that mp3 guy was facing action, had the clock called on him, and didn't act within his time allowed, then yes, his hand is dead and the other player gets the pot. It is his responsibility to know the action and if wearing headphones prevents this, then he shouldn't wear them. He certainly should have come up for air sooner than when the pot was awarded away from him. He did not protect his own rights and actions. IMO, the time has expired and his hand is dead. If this isn't the situation, please restate it and we'll see what we can come up with, ok?
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2010, 02:37:13 PM »
Ditto Jan's Reply,

The player who made the original action failed to keep up with action at the table and it his own responsibility to keep abreast of current action.

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Stuart
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tgren

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Re: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2010, 06:52:52 PM »
Well, it is a challenge to the rule #30 for raising that a raising action always have to be made by presenting chips into the pot, not just a verbal mention about the all-in action. As an observer of this, I felt it was unfair ruling towards the guy with the MP3 player as he also mentioned that he didnt see any action made on the table. Maybe the rule 30 is not binding players to actually push chips into the pot? Many places have a rule that at least a significant chipstack (larger than the opponent) has to be physically moved into the pot. However, if this would be ruled in the favour of the original betting guy with the mp3 player, how would this ever be resolved?! I think it is a fair comment that chips has to be moved into the pot or the action is not completed by the other player but I may be wrong. It was definitely easier for the house to rule for the guy who only made a verbal call for an all-in.

chet

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Re: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2010, 09:14:17 PM »
Tgren:  Rule #30 provides for three different methods of raising:  "...(1) placing the full amount in the pot in one motion; or (2) verbally declaring the full amount prior to the initial placement of chips into the pot; or (3) verbally declaring "raise" prior to the placement of the amount to call into the pot and them completing the action with one additional motion...."

I did not see the action in question, but I submit there are times when requiring a player to push their entire stack into the pot is impractical.  We have seen many events on TV where a player has stacks and stacks and stacks of chips (which is another separate problem in my opinion), I do not believe it is practical to require a player to push 10, 20, 30 or more stacks forward when he/she has made a verbal statement heard by all except the player listening to his/her "tunes".  My personal opinion is that as long as the player made a verbal "all-in" that was clear to everyone else, the problem is with the player not paying attention. 

Hope this helps!

Stuart Murray

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Re: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2010, 03:06:17 PM »
TGren:

It is unfortunate, however the bottom line is it is the players own fault for not keeping abreast of current action, as per Chet describes and I would remind you of RROP and Rule 29 Verbal Declarations in Turn are binding.  It is indeed often impractical to move a whole stack into the middle as per Chets description, if the original player had seen chips being moved into the middle he may of assumed player b was merely calling and flipped over his hand, owing to the fact he did not know what was happening anyway.

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Stuart
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 06:55:19 AM »
Not trying to defend a player who is more interested in their tunes then they are the action before them, but I have to respectfully disagree with what is seemingly becoming the consensus here.

Because of the rampant use of iPods at the table, we ask a little more of the dealers on the road (WSOP, WPT and corresponding circuit events). We ask the dealers to make sure that an all-in player places at least one stack (preferably a stack of the largest denomination chips) into the pot and then alert any other players remaining in the hand that the player with said stack is in fact all-in.

My questions here are:
Why didn't the dealer get the attention of the MP3 player when the other player announced all-in?
Why when the clock was called for did the floor not at least get some kind of acknowledgment from the player having the clock put on them?

Surely the MP3 player must have been quite shell shocked when he found out that it was he whom the clock was on and that his hand was dead.

Sounds like a complete misunderstanding all the way around.

Nevertheless, what would I have done?

Clearly the reaction of MP3 player was astonishment. I probably would have given him another 30 secs or less to act and after realizing that he didn't even know the clock was on him and he obviously had no idea there was a bet facing him.

This is easily a spot where you can say 100% that fairness should prevail.

Afterward, you should make them aware that just because they wear headphones/earphones doesn't mean that they don't have to pay attention to the action. There was a similar situation that happened at the Southern Poker Championship and I'll post that in another thread.
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 07:38:11 AM »
wsopmcgee,

I do agree with many aspects of your interpretation, however I feel given the description of what has transpired I do not see me or any of my staff making any different a ruling.  If the IPod guy was calling the clock and the clock was then applied surely I or anyone else with any interest in a pot would be abreast of what was happening after calling said clock.

I find it quite hypocritical to the aims of the TDA to suggest we should effectively have our dealers 'nanny' a player simply because he is wearing earphones.  My feelings are that if I was to start this type of treatment of players at my tables, they would then become even more reliant on the dealer, when I try to achieve the exact opposite from my players.

Whilst there are indeed times where I find your dealer requirements suitable for use, these would be at events such as charity poker nights, where the players experience is very low, as a card-room manager told me "I'd rather run a tournament for 300 regulars than for 100 pub players as it's such hard work for the floor and the dealers, with poor etiquette and a lack of technical knowledge in abundance"
Stuart Murray
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 08:06:37 AM »
I find it quite hypocritical to the aims of the TDA to suggest we should effectively have our dealers 'nanny' a player simply because he is wearing earphones.  My feelings are that if I was to start this type of treatment of players at my tables, they would then become even more reliant on the dealer, when I try to achieve the exact opposite from my players.

Nanny? Ha ha, hardly. More like prodding.

I was under the impression that the 'motionless' player in tgren's description was the player who didn't put any chips into the pot, but had moved all-in.

If the MP3 player called for the clock, I'd presume it wasn't to call the clock on himself. If it is, I don't even entertain the idea. IMO, you may not call the clock on yourself.

Sorry you find it hypocritical. I'm not asking nor suggesting you have your dealers do anything different than what you want them to do. I was simply stating what we ask them to do at the events I work for. Doing so alleviates some of the problems that occurred in this situation. It isn't always the person with headphones on that is unaware that another player has moved all-in, when they don't have any chips in the pot.

That's why I'm a big fan of all-in buttons. I think dealers should carry them and place them in front of the all-in player making everyone aware, whether wearing headphones or not. Sometimes it's just too dang noisy for everyone to hear. But if your blind to a big all-in button staring at ya..... well I can't help ya. LOL.

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pokerfish

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Re: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 10:36:07 AM »
Interesting debate.... a few comments here to add

You CAN call the clock on yourself and I've seen it done all the way up to and including a final table of a WPT event where Kenna James did it. I have seen it several times and there is nothing in the rules to prohibit it and it DOES speed up the game.... I've just returned from the LAPC, an amazing event. That said, there is a language barrier not only between dealers and players but among the players themselves. Often the dealer will never say anything.... not a word. The players are expected to, and do, keep up with the action. I wear an ipod sometimes and have never missed an action. That said, wearing it I am assuming the inherent risk of missing something and that's a trade off I (and other players should) have accepted. Someone who chooses to play with blinders is not entitled to special assistance from the dealer. Wouldn't that violate the one player to a hand? I do agree that if mp3 guy didn't move at all for such a long time that someone should have done something to make sure he was breathing.... put a mirror under his nose, whatever. Dealers in different venues run the games differently.... but IMO bottom line it is the players responsibility to follow the action. The proper use of BIG all in buttons is gospel IMO.

When you are playing and nothing happens, no one moves, for such a long time don't you usually ask "who's it on"? It almost always is on the player who asked. For the entire clock to have run down this player did not exercise due care in protecting himself....


Jan
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 10:55:05 AM »
interesting rebuttle and some very valid points,

I do like the idea of the All-in button, but then I can't decide if I would really want to use them again as Jan says and myself it's prodding or nannying the players who should be aware of whats going on anyway.

With regard to calling the clock, taken from RROP
16. In all no-limit and pot-limit games, the house has the right to place a maximum time limit for taking action on your hand. The clock may be put on someone by the dealer as directed by a floorperson, if a player requests it. If the clock is put on you when you are facing a bet, you will have one additional minute to act on your hand. You will have a ten-second warning, after which your hand is dead if you have not acted.
I differ slightly from this as I do not allow myself, dealers or floor to call the clock on a player, it is only the players at that table who may do so, and yes you can call the clock on yourself.  I've seen it done and I've done it to myself also.

I wear an MP3 when I'm playing in a dealer led game which is most weekend games and I have never been in a situation nor have any of the players whom I sit down with who also wear MP3's where we were not abreast of the current action.  I usually wear my MP3 in one ear with the music low however I do sometimes to aleviate tilt etc turn it up and put both earphones in.  I can't hear a thing but my eyes know what is going on and have never made a mistake 'yet'.

Best Regards
Stuart
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pokerfish

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Re: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2010, 11:05:27 AM »
Stuart,
I respectfully disagree.... a TD or other tournament floor staff (not a dealer) MAY call a clock. I have seen instances when the action is taking so long, and players are needlessly burning up the clocks that I feel the TD needs step in. Also, often other players don't "want to be the guy" who calls the clock yet they all want to. This takes the heat off of them. As a TD, I've had players come to me and ask me "about player #6 on table #5" and could I keep an eye on him. I may notice that every hand he takes way too long.... and then mucks. I will announce to the room that action must be constant but slowing up the action on purpose will not be tolerated. Once I've done this and still see offending players, I will let them know that I will call the clock on them. I've never had to but I have seen it done and it does stop the problem and also takes heat off the players in the game for not being the one to start a war zone....
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Player not aware of action / no chips pushed into pot
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2010, 11:35:11 AM »
Jan,

Very valid points, my apologies I did not mean that I would never impose the clock only that it was not my policy for my staff or I to be seeking to place players on the clock.  If a situation dictates I would of course step in and speed up the action, however I have never done so yet.

Perhaps time for a slight change in my house procedure regarding calling the clock!

Thanks for picking up on that one!

Stuart
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