Author Topic: Single overchip w/ other previously bet chips in front of you: call or raise?  (Read 2602 times)

MikeB

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An interesting question was received in e-mail and is posted here for benefit of all:

Hi T_____,
 
The TDA Rules clearly state that the action you describe should be a call:

Rule 39. Oversized Chip Betting. When facing a bet or blind, placing a single oversized chip in the pot is a call if a raise isnít first verbally declared. To raise with an oversized chip, raise must be declared before the chip hits the table surface. If raise is declared (but no amount), the raise is the maximum allowable for that chip. When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.
 
Dave Lamb
**********************************
From: T__________
Subject: please stop confusion

I recently played at a tournament that claims to use TDA rules.....
blinds are 100, 200. utg + 1 calls 200, sb calls, bb announces raise, puts in 700. utg+ 1 calls the 700, sm blind puts in a 1000 chip and does not pull back the 2 100 dollar chips.

Is this a minimum raise to 1200, (original raise amount 500), or is this just a call of 700? I have gotten mixed answers from 3 different floor people.
Thanks!
T________

mooredog

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Players tend to do this a lot, where they throw out the oversized chip then pull in the other loose chips. If done without delay we rule it a call because it's so common, but if it sits there for any length of time (whatever that means) with the player not pulling the previous chips in it will be ruled a raise. I would like to see a TDA rule addressing this specific action because it seems to happen a lot.

K-Lo

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To me, this is a clear call, in the absence of a verbal declaration. First, the 2x100 chips that the sb put in are already in the pot - the chips are no longer his to take back.  In fact, in those days where the dealer would pull all the bets in after the BB's raise this wouldn't be an issue (although I know we are no longer doing that in accordance with the new recommended procedures), because the 2 x 100 chips wouldn't be in front of the player anymore to cause confusion. 

In any case, when it's the sb's turn to act and it's 500 for him to call, in respect of that specific action and his option of whether to fold/call/raise he has only placed a single oversized chip into the pot without a verbal declaration, and therefore, throwing in the (extra) 1000 chip falls squarely under the Rule and is a call.  I would have to disagree with the post below that if the 100 chips are not pulled back, that it should then be ruled a raise (in the absence of a verbal declaration).

I think the more interesting case that involves the pulling back of chips occurs if there actually has been a verbal declaration of raise, but no specific amount.  For example, let's say the sb did say raise and instead of a 1000 chip, he threw in a 5000 chip.  Would the dealer have to hold him to a raise "to 5200", or should he allow the sb to take back 200 (effectively allowing the player to make change for himself from the main pot) for a raise "to 5000"?  We do see the latter a lot, and we let it go, but it would seem that this might not be technically permitted under a strict interpretation of the Rule. 


WSOPMcGee

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I don't like these situations and wish players would just say what the hell they're doing. It's so easy. They are one syllable words, "Raise" and "Call". So easy. Ok that's my rant.

At this years TDA quorum it was decided that:

1) If player in SB simply added an oversized chip to chips already in the pot that it would be a call.
2) If player in SB took their oversized chip and proceeded to grab the chips already in the pot and toss them in together, then that would be considered a raise.

I like K-Lo's response. In this situation the player is calling 500 with the oversized 1000 chip.

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Nick C

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I agree with K-lo when he says we need a more strict interpretation of this rule. I also agree with Thomas when he says the player should just make his intentions clear.
As far as players removing chips from the betting area, that happens every day in every card room. In a 5 and 10 limit game with blinds of 2 and 5, the SB almost always tosses in a 5 and takes back his 2 when he calls. Until the bets are swept into the pot players are allowed to complete bets and raises by adding larger denomination chips and removing smaller ones. I think that would be difficult to change and would slow down the action.

 I might have missed something but the original post had me confused. The way it is written, I thought the BB raised 700 more because he was already in for 200?
The action was clarified later when it was mentioned that the raise was 500. That's why I didn't respond earlier.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 08:57:45 PM by Nick C »