Author Topic: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?  (Read 4219 times)

vikingarna

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Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« on: September 04, 2011, 09:39:29 AM »
If there is three players in a pot, Sb,Bb and the button and the player on the button was the first one to move allin and both blinds calls so that all three players are allin, who is supposed to show first?? ???
Many pokerrooms have the rule that in this situation the player who made last agreesive action, in this scenario the button, has to show first but according to TDA rules it is Sb.
Is there anyone that can explain why?
When I was dealing an EPT tournament they play with the rule that the player with the last action always have to show first even if all players checks on river.

Nick C

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2011, 10:22:33 AM »
Vikingarna,
 The button shows first, because the button initiated the last act of aggression by going all-in before the blinds called. Why do you think the TDA wants the SB to show first?

chet

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2011, 11:16:55 AM »
I wrote the following before I realized this is posted in the Cash Game Thread.  That said, I see no reason the TDA concept cannot be accurately applied to Case Games.  The solution---------------------------DEVELOP A HOUSE RULE, problem solved!!!!!

The TDA does NOT have a rule regarding the order of showdown in an ALL-IN situation.  In my opinion the reason is obvious as TDA Rule 11 requires ALL HANDS to be turned FACE UP as soon as all betting action is complete.  Given TDA Rule 11, I submit there is no point in having a rule regarding order of showdown when there is an all-in as all hands have to be turned face up and "CARDS SPEAK".

Chet
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 11:20:18 AM by chet »

vikingarna

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2011, 12:45:01 PM »
Thank you for your quick answer,Nick.
At our casino there are always different type of discussions and because there hasnt been any action on turn and river cause they are allin the casino want the player closest to the button should show first.This scenario is in cash game and in tournament all players have to show their cards before turn and river comes.

Nick C

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2011, 03:03:24 PM »
vikingarna,
 See if this helps.
                        ROBRETS RULES OF POKER version 11
3- General Poker Rules      Showdown

Rule 8
If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there are one or more side pots (because someone is all-in), players are asked to aid in determining the pot winner by not showing their cards until a pot they are in is being settled. A player may opt to throw his hand away after all the betting for the deal is over, rather than compete to win the pot. However, the other players do not lose the right to request the hand be shown if he does so.



Stuart Murray

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2011, 04:46:36 PM »
With regard to this, and given that this is a Cash Game, there is no requirement for anyone to show their hand, the last live hand wins the pot, and anyone who wishes to claim to pot should table their cards without delay.  With regard to there being a stalemate situation where no-one wished to showdown, provided it was the river it would be the button who should show first (in that betting round) if the button moved all-in on a previous betting round and there was no river bet, then it would be the first player clockwise to show and so on.

This is purely using tournament procedure, which we adopt into cash game poker, and it would be your own responsibility to have a bona fide cash game poker ruleset.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
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South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

alex

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2011, 05:18:20 PM »
Hi , let's say 4 players in a hand on the turn , player A went all in for 200$ , player B went all in for 500 $ , player C  fold , player D called the 500 bet . Who would show his card first on the river. Ty

Nick C

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2011, 05:36:09 PM »
Player B would show first because he would be in contention for a side pot (600) with Player D. Afterwards the main pot winner would be decided between that winner and Player A.

Stuart, I don't know what rules you go by in your games but, if a player bets and is called, the calling player has a right to see the bettors hand first.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 06:50:18 PM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2011, 06:27:28 AM »
Hi Nick

"if a player bets and is called, the calling player has a right to see the bettors hand first."

Yes, he does have the right to see that hand, providing it is a river bet the last person to take aggressive action must show first IN THAT BETTING ROUND, if there was no bet, it is the first player clockwise and so on.
TDA rule 12 does apply to the order of showdown in a cash game, as face up for all-ins DOES NOT apply to cash game poker, unless you specifically have a rule for cash poker that an all-in must be shown, but that would be ridiculous to have such a rule, as its not a tournament, and would needlessly reduce rakes by slowing the game.

12.   Showdown Order. In a non-all-in showdown, at
the end of the last round of betting, the player who
made the last aggressive action in that betting round
must show first. If there was no bet in the last round,
the player to the left of the button shows first and so on
clockwise. In stud, the player with the high board must
show first. In razz, the lowest board shows first

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

vikingarna

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2011, 09:13:19 AM »
So this mean that in this hand Sb shows first Bb second and the button ,who made the last agressive action, will show last in a cashgame where rhey are allin on after the flop.I understand what Stuart means but in this stiuation they are allin after the flop and therefore no more actions.In my meaning since Sb made a call he is entitled to see buttons card no matter what but the button should show first since he got called.

Nick C

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2011, 11:31:48 AM »
vikingarna,
 I think you are still confused. This is a cash game, stick to Robert's Rules on my earlier reply. You might also want to read my response to Alex's question, too. I'll tell you this, if I'm in the pot and I call your bet, I will not turn my hand over before you do. That reminds me of the characters that raise you head to head, and after you call, they ask you what you have? Are you kidding me? This is when a good dealer should insist that the bettor show their hand first. It's that simple and that's the way it, has always been, and should always be.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 07:40:05 AM by Nick C »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2011, 12:04:21 PM »
seeing someone elses cards is not really that important in cash poker, it does depend on your own house rules though whether you have a face-up rule for all-ins but as I previously stated that is just wasting time and rake, those who wish to claim the pot should table their cards, your cards are your claim to the pot, I think there has been too much emphasis on the fact that the player is all-in in this thread, as Nick says if he is in the hand he would table his hand and wait for a further claim to the pot to arrive, which is fine, or he would wait for the last agressor to table if it was in that betting round.

For tournaments, where there is no bet on the river it is clockwise by pots order (for example players contesting pot 3) would table first, followed by pot 2, followed by pot 1, where there was action on the river the last agressor would table first. It does also state "A player with a probable winner is encouraged to table without delay (slowroll)" so that should also be considered.

In Cash though, dependant on your house rules, it's different, throw your cards in the muck if you want to surrender, table them if you want to claim the pot, is a crude but effective way to consider showdowns, For example, two players go all-in pre-flop everyone else folds, do you enforce a showdown here? or do you do what we do, simply deal the board out and then wait for someone to claim the pot? The latter is faster and generates more rake per hour, I don't think Face-up for all-ins should apply whatsoever in cash games - it's cash and it's more or less only the current hand being played. In Tournaments it's the whole game that matters on each and every table from start to finish.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Nick C

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2011, 03:10:31 AM »
Stuart,
 Great post! I agree with your suggestions for cash games. As long as all betting is complete show your cards. Cash game rules will only come into play if for example; no one wants to turn their hand first. If that happens the dealer will enforce the rule for the last aggressive action, or first player clockwise to the button, or whatever rule that pertains to the specific game being played.
 I also like what you said about the all-in situation for cash games. When action is head-to-head, or no more betting is possible, if a player does not want to turn over his hole cards pre-flop, or anytime before the last board card is dealt, just have the dealer burn and turn and get to the showdown.
 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 11:26:24 AM by Nick C »

vikingarna

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Re: Allin after the flop- Who is supposed to show first?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2011, 12:43:11 PM »
Thanks for your comments and infos and a great forum :)