Author Topic: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)  (Read 5334 times)

DocWilson

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Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« on: August 18, 2011, 03:33:41 AM »
Question :

Player A is confronted with a bet/raise of 40 : he announces " raise " : and first throws in his call (40) and then wants to add his raise.
Is this a forced minimum raise of 80 (double the previous bet) or can he raise any amount ?

String bet technically ?

Thank you for your reactions ?


Nick C

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2011, 06:32:44 AM »
The minimum raise should be stated as 40 and not 80. The fact that you posted this under cash game rules makes the situation different from a tournament. First off, I will assume the game is no limit.  if I were dealing I would announce "raise" stop any further action until the amount is clarified. The minimum raise must be met, no matter what transpires. There are rules in cash games that alow players to keep pushing until their arms are at rest at their side, as long as they said raise first.

chet

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 06:38:21 AM »
Doc Wilson:

This is another example of why you need to develop House Rules.  The "One Chip" Rule is a TDA Rule and TDA Rules are not intended to apply to Cash Games, although you could adopt most of them as House Rules should you choose.

Chet

JasperToo

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2011, 07:00:22 AM »
Doc, Nick sort of answered your question by stating that the player must make at least a minimum bet.  It's not a one chip rule here because the player announced raise and then put in the amount of the "CALL". 

Nick points out that for cash games, according to RROP (and others?) the player could keep putting chips out until his arms are tired.  However, I think most rooms would insist on the player announcing a particualur amount or pushing chips out all in one motion(after the call amount).

This is not a string bet and the player can bet more than the minimum.

The player should be careful to not put out more than the initial call amount when doing things this way as I have seen a few houses enforce the one chip rule and the minimum raise limitation in those cases.....I don't believe that is the right thing to do if the player was obviously only trying to put the call amount out, but I have seen it.

Pepper_W

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2011, 01:20:06 PM »
In our cash games, players have kind of unofficially adopted the process of announcing "raise", then putting out the current bet with a comment such as "there's your raise", then putting out their raise separately in one motion.  While this helps keeps the amount of their raise or re-raise clear, it does kind of cause the people behind them to do the math.  This is where a good dealer will do the math and keep the players straight on the action to them.  In any case, only one motion or an announced amount is allowed for the raise. 


Nick C

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2011, 02:43:50 PM »
Pepper,
 Raises have always been an interesting topic for discussion. I remember similar talks on other posts. Consider how many times you have been in a game when a player makes a statment like this; "I raise 200"....Here is the problem, the player in front of him has just bet 100...so unless the dealer gets a confirmation (by asking or visual), we are uncertain if the bet was raised 100 more or if the raise was 200 more? I hope I am making this clear because it is very common in any game that is not limit. This is where the good dealer will speak-up and stop any further action until the correct amount is confirmed, before the next player reacts.
 This is a cash game so you'd better check the house rules for bets and raises. Some rooms have betting lines, some rooms insist that chips must be released into the pot in one motion. Other rooms might insist that you announce the total amount of your raise. After a player announces a raise, he may be allowed to keep pushing until he gets tired. The best thing to do is make your intentions perfectly clear when the bet is on you, but we all know that will never happen.

Pepper_W

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2011, 06:01:36 AM »
Since all of our games are somewhat smaller than those in any organized card room, all of the games around here are relatively loose as long as you indicate a raise and then make one motion to the pot.  Or, announce the exact amount of the raise before moving any chips, which is what I have gotten into the habit of doing since it makes it clear to everyone.  Out of habit I always announce the amount of my raise and then give a total amount of the action to the next player.  This seems to be one of those things that is defined by what the house and players are use to. 
The thing that drives me crazy is when a player announces a raise, gives the amount and then splashes the pot.  I've caught so many players announce 1600 and then when I stop them from splashing the pot, knowing they were about to, I find that they only have 700 in their hand. 

Nick C

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2011, 05:41:23 PM »
Dealers need to let players know that they can't splash the pot. Bets should be pushed or dropped in the betting area and not directly in the center pot. I used to isolate the pot and protect it from players that did just what you described, intentionally shorting the pot. It's strange, isn't it, how they never put in too much. :)

If the bet or call was "splashed" into the pot, to where the amount was uncertain, the dealer should call the floor. The process might be difficult but, the pot should be counted and confirmed. Any shortage would be paid by the player that splashed the pot.

chet

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2011, 06:48:33 PM »
Adding to Nick's answer, I would give any and ALL players that continue to splash the pot a warning and the next time I would call the floor and explain that this player(s) continues to splash the pot making bet amounts difficult to confirm.  Let the floor make a decision, perhaps this person should be asked to take a vacation for the rest of the day or week.  However, that is up to the floor, not the dealer.  If in your "small games", you don't have a "floor", then you as the event organizer need to decide whether your event needs this person. 

In a cash game, there aren't any 'penalties' as there are in tournaments.  If you can't get this person to change their behavior, then you have a difficult decision to make.

Pepper_W

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2011, 03:39:06 PM »
Our games are small (25-50 players per night).  My wife and I organize and supervise the game.  We take turns acting as the floor or playing, depending on who's turn it is.  Since they are self-dealt games there are a ton of unusual circumstances that come up.  Fortunately, everyone also knows the pot splashers and I've heard some rather interesting threats made to stop it.  One player was told the next time he splashed the pot they were going to remove the tires from his truck and sell them.  Not really something you can threaten in a casino and get away with.  One guy told him every time he splashed the pot he was going to bring one of the spark plugs out of his truck back to the table.  He actually brought one to the table and gave it to him when he splashed the pot.  It wasn't out of the guy's truck, but it stopped his splashing the pot. since he was told the next one would be. 
We haven't gotten to the stocks and handcuffs yet, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear about those.
 

Nick C

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2011, 07:42:08 AM »
Pepper,

 Telling the players not to splash the pot should be enough. When I deal, I stack every bet and place it in the betting area, even when the players spill the stack and it touches the center pot. At the same time, I would let the player know that his wagers must be clearly identifiable to all. I would stack each player's bet, every time and eventually they get the message. I mentioned this on another reply but it is worth mentioning again. There was a regular player that insisted on splashing every pot. I would actually lean forward and cover the pot with both hands when it was her turn to act. My action would bring laughter to most of the players and eventually she got the message.

JasperToo

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 01:23:00 PM »
The threat we use in cash games for players that splash the pot and have already been warned is that any chips in the main pile are no longer their chips and only the chips that are still identifiable count toward their call.  If they are raising then their raise is smaller, if it isn't a legal raise after the splash they have to make it up. 

It only happens once and those players hardly ever splash the pot again.


Pepper_W

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2011, 05:30:32 AM »
Sorry guys, I've been somewhat tied up with a little 35,000 acre fire we had down here.  I haven't really had time to get into the web site lately.  So, I'm a little behind.

I like the idea of stacking the chips and using that consistently to get players in the habit of stacking their calls/bets/raises.  I'm definitely going to start doing that to encourage players to do the same thing.  Players will begin to stack their chips to keep the dealer from touching them. 

mooredog

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Re: Announcing " raise " (throwing in call amount)
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2011, 07:34:59 PM »
Once a player announces raise his options as to how much to raise are not limited by pushing the call amount forward first