Author Topic: Tournament dealer procedures  (Read 23151 times)

Nick C

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Re: TOURNAMENT DEALER PROCEDURES
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2011, 04:03:54 PM »
I tried to reply to the TDA Recommended Procedures but was unable to. I copied this because it describes what Jasper is discussing.

RP-2. Bringing in Bets is Discouraged. Routinely bringing in chips as betting and raising proceeds around the table is poor dealing practice. The reduction in bet stacks may influence the action, create confusion & increase the risk of error. The TDA recommends that dealers do not touch a player's bet unless a count is needed. Only the player currently facing action may ask the dealer to bring-in chips.

 I always train dealers to bring all bets into the pot when the betting round is complete. The exception, of course is when action is down to two players and they have enormous chipstacks. I think that there could be mention of this because many of us have tournaments that don't have large numbers of chips on the table. I've worked small tournaments where player's started with 10 chips each. A betting line would be helpful to assure that a player could not retract their chips. The WSOP and the WPT are not what we should be looking at for the average tournament. Bringing in the bets is a proper dealer procedure.

JasperToo

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Re: TOURNAMENT DEALER PROCEDURES
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2011, 04:51:06 PM »

 I always train dealers to bring all bets into the pot when the betting round is complete. The exception, of course is when action is down to two players and they have enormous chipstacks. I think that there could be mention of this because many of us have tournaments that don't have large numbers of chips on the table. I've worked small tournaments where player's started with 10 chips each. A betting line would be helpful to assure that a player could not retract their chips. The WSOP and the WPT are not what we should be looking at for the average tournament. Bringing in the bets is a proper dealer procedure.

Nick, you say you always train dealers to bring all bets into the pot when the betting round is complete.  If I understand you correctly you mean all players who are going to enter the pot have and all action is complete because the last player only called whatever bet or raise is out there?  That is a different scenario than the one being addressed with the "dealers bringing in chips" in RP-2.  The situation there is when all the players call a blind or initial bet and then a late player raises, dealers (including myself..) will frequently pull the initial bets from each player into the pot leaving the raise amount in front of the raiser.  This procedure has apparently been discouraged, unless specifically requested by the opponent who's turn it is to act.

That part didn't seem to be a problem to me... I was mostly curious about whether dealers should be quantifying bets or just let players count the chips themselves unless they specifically ask for a count?

Nick C

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Re: TOURNAMENT DEALER PROCEDURES
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2011, 05:49:26 PM »
Jasper,
 Perhaps I do have a problem understanding the situation defined in RP-2. I will always expect a good dealer to count (not out loud) each players bet before they push it into the pot. I train dealers to wait until the complete betting round is finished before pushing the chips into the pot. I'm not quite sure I'm understanding you completely. The blinds are in the betting area (part of the pot but not actually in the center pot yet), as players call, their bets are also placed in the betting area (this is another reason why I prefer a betting line). The blinds remain until all bets and raises (if any) are complete. At this point the dealer should have all correct amounts from all participating players confirmed. Some of the more efficient dealers will announce, "pots right" burn and turn and then sweep in the bets to the center. This saves a little time as oppossed to pushing the bets into the pot and then burning a card. In either method, I do not want the dealer to push the blinds in until the round is complete.
 I know there was much discussion about not letting the dealer count the chips, or not letting the dealer do much of anything. I don't agree.
If there is one thing that bothers me when I go to play in a casino it is this; Player A bets 37 and the calling player pushes a stack of chips forward and the dealer topples it over into the pot without confirming it! Count the damn chips.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 08:18:37 PM by Nick C »

JasperToo

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Re: TOURNAMENT DEALER PROCEDURES
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2011, 06:02:58 PM »
Ok, that last post makes it pretty clear to me that you are teaching your dealers procedure that fits well with the spirit of RP-2 in that you expect them to leave bets in front of each player until all bets or raises have been called or a player folds.

As I said, I think a dealer should be able to count a bet when it is pushed out but the discussion was whether or not the dealer should actually announce that amount (if the player didn't) to the rest of the table.  The dealers at this years wsop were doing it but I gathered that Matt wouldn't approve.

Nick C

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Re: TOURNAMENT DEALER PROCEDURES
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2011, 04:54:48 AM »
Announcing the bets is appropriate. If an incompetent dealer continues to "get it wrong" then that is a situation that has to be corrected. If the dealer can't improve, perhaps a job, not poker related would be more suitable. I don't think it should be at the expense of changing proper fundamental procedures of good dealers, that do it right.

Poor dealers, is a poor reason for making that kind of a change in a rule.

Nick C

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Re: Tournament dealer procedures
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2011, 03:30:10 PM »
Mike,
 Would you explain the proper procedure for bringing in bets, or better yet, tell me what that means. I've been in poker a long time and every now and then, I hear something new. The only time "bring in" was mentioned in the past was the minimal amount to call the initial bet or blind.

 While I'm on the subject of not understanding; what does the word "complete" mean in Rule #3?

 Finally, is there a reason that we had to mention six-handed games in rule #9? Just curious, that's all.

 


chet

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Re: Tournament dealer procedures
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2011, 08:24:32 PM »
Nick:

Not to speak for Mike, but here are my 2 cents:

From The Game Day Poker Almanac, Official Rule of Poker, by Kelli Mix:

"Bring-In Bet or Bringing-it-In  --  A forced bet used primarily in stud poker games to stimulate action..."  I would think that you would be familiar with that term given your experience.   :)  Remember there are tournaments around for games other than flop games.

"Completing a Bet -- 1.  Raising the Bring-In bet to a full bet in a stud poker game.  2.  Raising to the minimum amount in a poker game where one player has gone all-in for less than the minimum bet..."  If I remember correctly, this last part applies only to Limit Poker, not No-Limit.

As to Six Handed Games -- 6 handed games have become quite popular lately.  In fact, if I remember right there were seven different 6-handed events in the 2011 WSOP. 

Chet

MikeB

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Re: Tournament dealer procedures
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2011, 11:22:12 PM »
Mike,
 Would you explain the proper procedure for bringing in bets, or better yet, tell me what that means. I've been in poker a long time and every now and then, I hear something new. The only time "bring in" was mentioned in the past was the minimal amount to call the initial bet or blind.
 

Here's an example of "bringing in the bet" by the dealer in the context of RP-2. Say there's 3 players. A bets 1000, B calls 1000, C makes it 2400 total. So the dealer, thinking that he will "simplify" things, brings in 1000 from each player into the pot, leaving zero in front of A, zero in front of B and 1400 for C. The action is now on A who's looking at 1400 to call from C.  While the bet size may be technically correct, this process is discouraged for the reasons listed in the RP.

Chet also cites "the bring in" by a player   which is another similar term but not the subject of RP-2. That probably deserves clarification in the title in Version 2.0 "Bringing in Bets by the Dealer is Discouraged"

 [/quote]


 While I'm on the subject of not understanding; what does the word "complete" mean in Rule #3?

 

In high stud, for example: let's say it's 10 - 20 limit with a forced bring-in of 5 for the low upcard showing on the initial deal. The lowcard can just put out the 5 bring-in or they can push out a "complete" bet of 10. If they push out the 5, the next player can also complete that to 10.

In limit games in general, if a player makes an all-in wager for less than half the amount of a normal bet or raise, that can also be completed to a full bet or raise.


 Finally, is there a reason that we had to mention six-handed games in rule #9? Just curious, that's all.

 
For 6-handed tournaments, 6-handed holdem for example... it's a style that some players like because it tends to force action, you can't lay back as readily as in an 8 or 9-handed event.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 11:35:06 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Tournament dealer procedures
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2011, 02:28:37 PM »
Okay guys thanks,
 So.....I agree with the rule that the dealer should not bring in bets.

I know what a bring-in means for betting, and for those interested the bring in for hold'em is the size of the big blind. It does not only pertain to stud.

I was curious about why the TDA would have to mention a six handed game, that's all. Thanks for clearing things up.

It seems odd that the word complete would be universally accepted as a proper word for poker. I've never used it to state a bet size in over 55 years in poker.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 08:21:08 PM by Nick C »

Nick C

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Re: Tournament dealer procedures
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2011, 08:13:30 AM »
After taking another look at Mike's example, I have to say that I am guilty of bringing-in bets. I would do that to isolate the raise and make it easier to see how much was necessary to call the raise. I agree that it could cause some confusion but, I thought that it was helpful when action was down to heads-up. I can certainly live with the rule and now I understand it's meaning. I do believe that many of the rules for poker (not only the TDA), should have a separate "section," or catagory for HEAD-TO-HEAD & also ALL-IN situations. I believe both can have a serious impact on making the right call.

JasperToo

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Re: Tournament dealer procedures
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2011, 04:59:52 PM »
So I was wondering if anyone else wanted to weigh in on the "announcing bets" thing.  Nick says that he thinks it is proper and I have always thought so myself. 

I think the discussion at the summit might have been directed specifically at an all-in bet (player pushes out a big stack of chips and says 'all-in' the dealer should NOT automatically reach over and count the chips but should just announce -"bet - all-in" or "Raise - all-in" and then wait for the next player to act to ask for a count before counting them).  This I am ok with for sure.. but what about the rest of the time? 

Should the dealer merely be announcing "Bet" or Raise" without quantifying it UNTIL a player who's turn it is to act asks for a count?  Or should they be announcing the amount of the bet or raise after it is put out?

For some reason I came away fuzzy on this topic after the summit.....

Nick C

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Re: Tournament dealer procedures
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2011, 05:21:04 PM »
Jasper,
 You came away fuzzy because you don't agree with the new TDA Rule #42 Accepted Action. Neither do I. The new rule does not recommend that the dealer count anything, even when asked by the player considering a call. He can ask, but what good is it, if he is given the wrong information, he is still liable to complete the call to the full amount. Period.
 There are times when I was dealing where a player made a raise and it was obvious how much the raise was; example Player A bets 100 and Player B raises to 200 total. I see nothing wrong with announcing "raise, 200 to call" to the next player, or if head to head; I would say "raise.... 100 more to call." If the action were down to two players and Player A bet 100 and Player B pushed all-in, or several stacks of chips, I would just say "raise." If the other player asked for a count, I would give it to him. It is pointless to break-down every raise without being asked. Limit games are much easier, of course.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 05:41:55 AM by Nick C »

mooredog

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Re: Tournament dealer procedures
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2011, 07:52:07 AM »
In our room we discourage our dealers from pulling in the call amount when there's a raise unless a player facing action asks. Also as to announcing raise amounts, we announce the amount if not an all-in but do not announce an all-in amount unless a player facing the action asks the amount. I learned this procedure the hard way while dealing in a big money tournament years ago when after announcing an all-in amount a name pro started swearing at me (conveniently with no supervisor in earshot) for announcing the all-in amount.

Nick C

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Re: Tournament dealer procedures
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2011, 09:23:39 AM »
mooredog,
 I agree with you but, what you do is not in compliance with TDA #42 Accepted Action. That is why I don't like the rule. If a calling player asks how much it is to call, IMO, he or she should be given that information. When a player goes all-in, that is all that should be announced by the dealer, unless the opposing player requests a count. This is where I disagree with the new TDA Rule. At some point a count will be taken, except when it is obvious that the winner has the other player covered, so why not count the bet or raise when it is requested?

mooredog

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Re: Tournament dealer procedures
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2011, 06:56:32 AM »
 We do count the bet or raise when requested.
As for rule #42 we tend to go with rule #1 instead. Basically in the interest of fairness if a player asked for a count and the dealer counted the bet in good faith, announced it, noone corrects him, and then after a call we find the amount to be wrong we usually hold the players liable for the announced amount only. It's usually close and when this has happened the players involved have felt our decision to be fair. I realize this runs counter to rule #42 now but fortunately this dilemma is somewhat rare. In a big international tournament the rule may be interpreted more strictly. You would hope at that level the dealers would be extremely competent and this mistake would not happen but as anyone who's dealt, supervised, or played in the biggest tournaments knows staffing needs sometimes mean inexperienced dealers (and overworked & tired ones) end up in these situations. I believe the rule to be too strict.