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Author Topic: Question re possibly mucked flop cards: How to proceed?  (Read 8324 times)
MikeB
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« on: January 09, 2013, 12:00:08 PM »

The following interesting case was presented recently. Here it is re-posted anonymously along with procedural suggestions from TDA board members Jan Fisher and Matt Savage
*********************************

Hello TDA,  Great to correspond with you again.  I had a Floor Call in my weekly tournament last week and was interested in your opinions with regard to TDA rules.  The situation:  4 players call to see a flop with no raise.  6 players have mucked.  Dealer burns top card and proceeds to peel off three cards from top of deck to flop, however... Player in pot says, "Dealer, you didn't pull in my chips."  Dealer stops, pulls in chips to pot and proceeds to accidently push the three unseen flop cards into the muck to the point they were irretrievable.  Dealer proceeds to peel off three more cards from top of deck, stops, reconsiders, and then calls me over to make floor ruling.  What would your ruling be here?  Thanks, [name withheld]

Responses:
 
This is an unfortunate situation. Are any of the three cards that should have been the flop retrievable? Even in the wrong order? Is the burn card identifiable?

Alternative 1: I'd take the [three mucked cards, if retrievable] and as many cards as are known to be pure (as in not having been discards) and reshuffle them and put out another flop. If the burn card is intact, I would not burn again as we know that card was not to be in play so I wouldn't shuffle that in. I'd also counsel the dealer to pay better attention. This is still random card theory and while the players are going to whine and complain, in the long run, whatever you do won't make a difference. It will hurt/help a player in a negligible fashion in the long run.

Alternative 2: You also could (although this takes more time and quick thinking) take the three new flop cards and use the 1st and 3rd since they would have been the turn and river cards... and then reshuffle and complete from there. Personally I think this takes more explaining but the reality is that this disrupts the flow of cards the least but is the most complicated. My 2c. Interested to hear what the other TDs say.

Jan


Good answer Jan, I would add that I would NOT use the 3 mucked card(s) at all if unidentifiable and just move on from the stub.

Matt

« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 03:40:47 PM by MikeB » Logged
Nick C
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2013, 03:39:51 PM »

I agree with Jan and Matt. It's a bad situation but there are few alternatives. As Matt said, I would not use any of the mucked cards. Using the first and third card from a new flop (even though they would be the proper turn and river) would still not prevent the losers from complaining.

 Suspend further betting? Not sure that would help but, you could probably justify the action by assuring no further damage to participating players.
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K-Lo
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2013, 07:57:26 PM »

I would leave the mucked cards in the muck, and redeal the flop.  None of the real flop has been exposed - I would even consider burning again before dealing the new flop.  Yes, technically, we should preserve as much off the original board as possible, but when the entire board has not been exposed, the five cards that eventually come out on the board are still random and I don't think it would be an unfair solution.  I don't mind alternative 2 either.
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Tristan
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2013, 12:38:20 PM »

proceeds to accidently push the three unseen flop cards into the muck to the point they were irretrievable.

I guess the dealer was on the right course...after the initial mistake.  It sounds pretty clear that they were irretrievable, so I would just proceed with the next three cards.  I do not feel we need to shuffle again, in fact I think shuffling could just create additional errors (accidentally exposed cards).  The cards were shuffled and are random.  I would not burn again.

I'm ok with alternative 2 as well, but I feel like it would cause more harm than help.  (More players confused vs. content)

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Tristan
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BillM16
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2015, 07:00:56 AM »


Dealer stops, pulls in chips to pot and proceeds to accidently push the three unseen flop cards into the muck to the point they were irretrievable.


The irretrievable cards should remain in the muck.


Dealer proceeds to peel off three more cards from top of deck, stops, reconsiders, and then calls me over to make floor ruling.


The burn before the flop is good and should be preserved and used as such.

The three cards that were peeled off should be preserved and used as follows:
  • #1   the burn before the turn
  • #2   the turn
  • #3   the burn before the river

The next card from the stub should be preserved and used as the river.

Now the new flop should be dealt without a new burn.  Finally, the four cards should be used in the prescribed manner.

I see no reason to shuffle the stub as it is already randomized.



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Nick C
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2015, 08:15:51 AM »

BillM16,

 I like your thinking to preserve the "proper" two burns and the turn, however, I think it's a little too much trouble to go through after such a mistake. What you suggest will guarantee that the "proper" flop will never be seen because the reshuffle for the flop will not include the muck, Roll Eyes whew...where the "proper" flop was buried.

 Another problem that I have with your suggested method; there are many times that the turn and river cards are not needed because the hand is over with the first bet. Also, where does the dealer keep the cards you want him to reuse?

There were no cards  exposed...so, I would suggest a scramble and re-shuffle of the remaining stub and proceed as if no error had occurred.
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Uniden32
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2015, 08:30:31 AM »

I agree that going through the trouble of removing the cards that would have been the burn cards for the turn and river is not necessary.

Random card theory.

Peel off the next three and move on.
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Ralph Brandt
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Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
Nick C
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2015, 11:13:35 AM »

I agree with the random card but, I'd prefer a reshuffle of the stub before continuing.
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K-Lo
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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2015, 12:21:57 PM »

I agree that going through the trouble of removing the cards that would have been the burn cards for the turn and river is not necessary.

Random card theory.

Peel off the next three and move on.

I concur.
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