Author Topic: Is verbal binding? Or isn't it?  (Read 5502 times)

Nick C

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Is verbal binding? Or isn't it?
« on: July 11, 2011, 01:08:11 PM »
When a player states an amount, and goes all-in, but pushes all his chips with a different amount, why is the calling player obligated to the exact count?

DCJ001

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Re: Is verbal binding? Or isn't it?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2011, 01:40:10 PM »
Specific amounts for each unknown are needed to answer this question.

Nick C

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Re: Is verbal binding? Or isn't it?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2011, 04:16:20 PM »
DCJ001,
 This is an example that was mentioned at the summit. Player A states his bet while pushing all of his chips into the pot (simultaneous). he says 80, but actually moved all his chips worth 100.

Nick C

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Re: Is verbal binding? Or isn't it?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 08:52:53 AM »
Maybe I'll get a response if I put it in a different way. Will the calling player be responsible for calling the correct amount (100) or the stated amount from the bettor?

DCJ001, I thought I would get a reply. I think it's worthy of some debate.

DCJ001

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Re: Is verbal binding? Or isn't it?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2011, 10:16:42 AM »
As soon as a player announces a bet size, without having had moved any chips, that bet is locked in. If a player announces 10,750, then pushes forward 325,000, the bet is still 10,750. Any additional amount must be pushed back to the player for consideration if a raise is made, or for action on future streets.

Nick C

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Re: Is verbal binding? Or isn't it?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2011, 12:47:03 PM »
DCJ001,
 That was too easy. Let me try again.  A player, while pushing his stack forward says 80 but, the total amount is actually 100, and it happens TO BE ALL OF HIS CHIPS. Is the player all-in, or are you going to hold him to his verbal bet?

DCJ001

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Re: Is verbal binding? Or isn't it?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 05:05:28 PM »
DCJ001,
 That was too easy. Let me try again.  A player, while pushing his stack forward says 80 but, the total amount is actually 100, and it happens TO BE ALL OF HIS CHIPS. Is the player all-in, or are you going to hold him to his verbal bet?

The questions that you're asking are not at all difficult. They should be answered objectively, impartially, and using common sense.

If a player is pushing forward 100 in chips, without saying anything, cuts 80, for example, and pulls the remaining amount back (cut and drop), the bet is not valid until an amount is cut in place and the remaining chips are pulled back.

If someone announces the amount of a bet (equal to or less than the chips that are pushed forward), before the chips are cut or released, verbal is binding. Whether or not the chips that are pushed forward are all of the player's chips is irrelevant. He should pull the remaining 20 back, and either call or fold to a raise on the same betting street, or check, bet, call a bet, or fold on a future street.

If someone announces the amount of a bet after releasing the chips that are pushed forward, the bet is the amount pushed forward.

It is very unlikely that the amount stated and the release of the chips will occur simultaneously. If there's a dispute, the dealer should do his/her best to determine which came first.

chet

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Re: Is verbal binding? Or isn't it?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 05:35:32 PM »
OK Guys, I am gonna stick my nose in here, if for no other reason than so you guys have someone to throw stones at.  In my opinion;

A.  If a player makes a verbal declaration and his/her total chips equal the amount we have no dispute, agreed?

B.  If a player makes a verbal declaration and his/her total chips are LESS than the amount declared, we have an all-in situation, agreed?

C.  If a player makes a verbal declaration and his/her total chips are MORE than the amount declared, the player's bet is limited to the amount declared, he/she cannot re-raise, but he/she can call another player's raise (on that or any later betting round).  (This is what I understand DCJ001 to be saying in his example in the third paragraph.)

Now the question at hand if a player declares an ALL-IN for X chips and the player has MORE than X chips in total, what would you require of that player.  In my opinion, if the player's ALL-IN declaration preceded the amount declaration (I am all-in for 80), I am of the opinion that the ALL-IN takes precedence and would require the player to push his/her total stack in, regardless of the amount. 

Now, if the player said "I bet 80, which puts me all-in", I am of the opinion that the player THINKS he/she has only 80 chips and would hold him/her to that amount.

Go for it!!

Nick C

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Re: Is verbal binding? Or isn't it?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2011, 05:05:03 AM »
Question #1....Okay guys, lets try this one. Two players left, first player says "all-in for 80" while pushing his stack (100) across the betting line. The opposing player says "call 80 ." The first player wins. Are we going to hold the bettor to his stated amount of 80, (verbal is binding) or, are we going to rule that the player that thought he was calling 80, must put another 20 in the pot? the WSOP rule #91, that puts the responsibility of knowing the amount bet on the player that calls?

Question #2.....How do you handle the same situation, if the calling player wins?

Oh, by the way, thanks for letting me know that if a player announces the amount he is betting, before he pushes the stack forward, he is obligated to his verbal declaration. (I Wanna be be a floorperson, 101)

Skylight

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Re: Is verbal binding? Or isn't it?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, 01:35:51 PM »
Question #1....Okay guys, lets try this one. Two players left, first player says "all-in for 80" while pushing his stack (100) across the betting line. The opposing player says "call 80 ." The first player wins. Are we going to hold the bettor to his stated amount of 80, (verbal is binding) or, are we going to rule that the player that thought he was calling 80, must put another 20 in the pot? the WSOP rule #91, that puts the responsibility of knowing the amount bet on the player that calls?
which makes the first mistake? The first player. he wins max 80 and verbal is binding.


Question #2.....How do you handle the same situation, if the calling player wins?
which makes the first mistake? The first player (and the dealer?) by giving 20 more to the pot ?
the player is responsible ? and takes his mistake ?
IMO if the second player win, he win the pot ! The first player lost 20 in the pot.

"oh you find 20 more? you are lucky, another player has made a donation to the pot ! "

it's just a point of view.   :o