Author Topic: Buy the Button?  (Read 14266 times)

K-Lo

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2012, 05:57:31 AM »
Okay, so here we are one year after Wolfster made the original post and nobody knows how it works, and that includes the links that suggest the answers! The only thing that makes sense to me is having 2 BB's on the first hand.

2 BB's + dead small?  Or just 2 BB?

Nick C

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2012, 09:33:18 AM »
K-Lo,
  2 BB's + dead small. I'm trying to figure this out, but my confusion is coming from trying to eliminate the dead button, or the dead SB and I'm not sure that's how the buy the button rule works. I'm treating this as if it were the "moving button" (where I know there are 2 BB's and two SB's at times). I'm trying to play-out the following:
  Seat 1 Button
  Seat 2 SB
  Seat 3 BB
  Seat 4 UTG
During current hand both seat's 2 and 3 bust-out. A new player is seated in seat 2. What happens to the button? Who posts the Blinds?

Same scenario but a new player is seated in seat 3.

Can a new player actually come in on the button and post both the SB (dead) and the BB (like the moving Button) This would have the UTG from the last hand also post the BB (2 BB's + 1 dead SB).

Does the buy the button allow any dead button, and/or a dead blind when both blinds from prior hand bust-out?

chet

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2012, 12:19:01 PM »
Nick:

For your examples, as I understand the process for "Buy the Button".  The ONLY position that can "Buy the Button" is the vacant SB position.  That position can post both blinds (dead SB, live BB) for the privilege of getting the button "on the next hand". 

So, example 1, where both seats 2 and 3 bust and leave the table.  A new player in seat 2 cannot Buy the Button as that will be the button seat for the upcoming hand (see definition above).  This player seat 2 must want until the button passes.

Same situation, but the new player comes in to seat 3.  This player can "Buy the Button" should he/she choose to do so by posting a dead SB and a live BB.  The Button would be dead as it is physically located in the vacant seat 2 position.  On the next hand the button would move to the seat 3 position.   The new player in seat 2 can post or come in behind the button, the button is in the seat 3 position, the SB is in the seat 4 position and the BB is in the seat 5 position. 

Granted there is an advantage to the player in seat 4 as this player is excused from paying the BB.  However, there is no loss or gain to the table as a  whole as both blinds are posted for each round.

If this house does not have a Buy the Button rule, then in your example, the button goes to seat 2 and is dead, the new player in seat 2 has to wait 1 hand until the button passes.  The new player in seat 3 would have to wait 2 hands until the button passes.  Seat 4 would be the lone BB (no SB).  The next hand seat 2 can come in, seat 3 how has the dead button, seat 4 is the SB and seat 5 is the BB.

Under the Buy the Button concept, a new player CANNOT come in on the button and post both blinds.  The ONLY place a new player can come in is if the SB position is vacant.

Hope this helps.

Chet


Nick C

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2012, 12:53:53 PM »
Chet,
 Thank you for your explanation. I never knew that a player was spared posting his BB with the "buy the button" rule. If you are correct, at least it makes sense. The next hand would then have the player that bought the button, on the button and the player that didn't have to post the BB on the last hand would be the SB...got it! If you're correct I can say I now understand "buying the button." Somehow I don't think it's right.

K-Lo

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2012, 02:47:45 PM »
Chet - I mean no disrepect, but I have to agree with Nick.  I don't feel it is right... Is there some authority we can look to? 

I am almost 99% certain  ;) that the classic buy the button case is a new player entering between the button and the person that would be the SB if the new player had not entered.  So in this case, he is entering in the "SB" position, but this is only when the next person would have posted the SB otherwise.  When a SB would actually not be posted by anybody if the new player had not entered, because of the button movement and vacated seats, which is the situation in your example, I think we are talking about a completely different thing, something rarer and definitely not the classic buy the button scenario.

I just can't see a player missing the Big Blind in any "dead button" rotation.  I don't know about moving button rotations, but one of the key characteristics of a dead button rotation is that the button is prevented from advancing under certain situations, so I can't see why this would be an exception in which the movement would be accelerated.  I believe that the button will never advance until every non-new player at the table posts the BB in a dead button movement, no matter what.

Nick C

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2012, 07:44:53 PM »
I can explain the moving button, with all it's complexities with 2 BB's and 1 SB, or 2 SB's and 1 BB, but this buying the button is not that easy to explain. I believe K-Lo is correct because after buying the button the player to your left will post the SB because he already posted the BB on the hand before you bought the button. What is interesting is the incorrect way people that say it's so easy explain it ...well...wrong!

 Well gentlemen, I guess we are the chosen few to sort out these rules. That's okay with me, I'd like to change a whole bunch of them anyway ;D

chet

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2012, 10:02:29 PM »
Guys:  I cannot explain it any better than what I have said.  I would think that there are some Poker Room Managers/Floor Persons that have experience with this and can clear it up.  But I have done the best I can with my last explanation. 

Sorry,

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2012, 11:27:13 PM »
K-Lo, Chet and anyone else that's interested;

  Buying the Button: There are two possible situations when a player can buy the button:
      #1  You miss your big blind and return to your seat. While you were gone, the player to your left was the BB. You will post a dead small and a big blind. The next hand you will have the button and the hand resumes as normal.

       #2  The button is in seat 1 the SB is in seat 2 seat 3 is vacant and seat 4 is the BB. On the following hand a new player is seated in seat 3 and buys the button!. That's it!
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 07:21:26 AM by Nick C »

W0lfster

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2012, 05:19:25 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQLQg4TGbis look at 33:30 Mike Matusow buys the button, as you can clearly see Phil doesnt post another BB. Under this rule does Mike act last and can check if nobody raises preflop? If everyone is still in the hand on the flop turn river would Mike go first or Phil?

I try to understand the Moving button rule but its hard to remember as it is complex. If we use Chets example of having a dead button situation and buying the button behind the vacant seat, this would not be possible in a moving button table as it would already have passed the player wanting to by the button. A player has physcially got to be at that seat.

Nick C

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2012, 06:43:30 AM »
Wolfster,
 I have explained rules for buying the button on the last post. If you are trying to compare this with the "moving button" you will become more confused. They are two different methods for moving the button. The moving button will never have a "dead" anything, because the button must move to the next active player. Buying the button may have a dead button.
 I have not looked at the video yet, but I will as soon as I finish my reply. I know there are other's that you would rather get a response from, but apparently that's not going to happen. In their defense, the BOD are experts in tournament play only and this is not a tournament procedure.
 I know the frustration of not understanding all of the different rules that pertain to button and blind procedures. It is obvious from your great question from over a year ago, has stumped most of us for a long time. I do believe that I can answer all of your questions regarding all of the different scenarios that now exist. I will now look at the video as you suggested and I'll see if I can figure it out.

 Wolfster, I've just watched the video. To answer your questions; Mike is the only BB so he will have a raise option pre-flop. After the flop, Mike will have first option on each betting round.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 07:25:20 AM by Nick C »

W0lfster

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2012, 12:00:04 PM »
Thx for your response Nick much appreciated. If you were to buy the button though, could you do so when the croupier is dealing? Supposing cards have gone past the absent player because he wasnt there in time to request but in time before the last card was dealt. Would the croupier reshuffle, redeal and give the player a chance to buy the button?

Thanks.

chet

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2012, 12:13:08 PM »
Wolfster:

Think about your question a bit.  Since the only player who can "Buy the Button" is in the SB position AND since the player in the SB position receives the FIRST card of the deal, is there ANY situation in which you would go back and allow the player in that position to receive cards AFTER other players have received their cards (covering for an exposed card does NOT apply)?

If the player has not exercised his/her option to "Buy the Button" BEFORE the first card is dealt, the player cannot "Buy the Button".  It is kind of like trying to place a straddle bet after you have looked at your hole cards.

Chet

diz475

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2012, 01:35:56 PM »
the player that can buy the button is the player between the small and the button.

if a player in the big blind busts out and a new player shows up before the new hand he can not buy the button, because the player to his left has not yet paid the big blind.

in the example chet gave that k-lo quated the new player has to wait for the button to pass to play he can't buy it he has to wait for the button to pass

Nick C

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2012, 08:14:15 AM »
diz475,

 Your statement: "the player that can buy the button is the player between the small and the button," needs more clarification. The new player seated in a vacant seat where the player to his left posted the BB on the last hand, and the player on the right was the SB. Example, last hand: button in 1 seat, SB in 2 seat, 3 seat empty,
 seat 4 BB...

Next hand, new player seated in seat 3 is allowed to buy the button. However, if there were two empty seats between the Button and the SB, and both seats were filled before the next deal...that changes things. I believe that only one new player, seated closest to the BB from the last hand, can buy the button.

Example, Last hand: Button in 1 seat, SB in 2 seat, seats 3 and 4 are empty, seat 5 is the BB. Next hand, new players are seated in both empty seats.. Only the new player in seat 4 has the option to buy the button and the seat 3 player must wait for the button to pass.

Any thoughts?

diz475

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Re: Buy the Button?
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2012, 12:55:52 PM »
yes your explination is better nick, when i said between the small and the button its like the tourn. rule the only place you can't get a hand.

the second part with 2 seats i would ask seat 3 it he wants to buy it and then allow seat 4 to buy it on the next hand, just to give them both the option but only one can do it per hand