LIVE CASH GAME POKER RULES DISCUSSION > Live Cash Game Rules Questions

Pre-raising an out of turn raise?

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Spence:
Here's a fun one that came up a few days back.
>1-2 No limit game.
>Seat 1 SB
>Seat 2 BB
>Seat 3 does not act
>Seat 4 raises to $11 out of turn
>Action returns to Seat 3 who raises to $10

What now?
Unfortunately I was on a break when this happened. I always miss out on the fun...

MikeB:
Hi Spencer:

Roberts Rules, Section 3 (General), Betting & Raising, rule 11 addresses this pretty well for cash games:

"11: Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. A player who has called out of turn may not change his wager to a raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn is binding unless the action to that player is subsequently changed by a bet or raise. If there is an intervening call, an action may be ruled binding."

In your example, Seat 4 made a verbal declaration out of turn to raise the action. At the time of 4's declare it was only 2 units to him.
Now, per Rule 11 above, if the action is sugsequently changed by a bet or raise, his declare is not binding. That's exactly what happened: the action was backed up to the rightful bettor (Seat 3) and 3 changed the action to Seat 4. 3 changed it from 2 units to 10 units. So, based on this I would rule that Seat 4 is not bound by his declaration of 11 units and can take any action he wants: call, fold, or raise.   BTW, this is similar to TDA Rule 29 for tournament play.

Spence:
I quickly skimmed through the TDA rules looking for this ruling but couldn't find it. Now that you've pointed it out it's clear as day:

Play: Bets & Raises
29.   Verbal Declarations / Acting in Turn
Verbal declarations in turn are binding.  Players are required to act in turn.  Action out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed.  A check, call or fold is not considered action changing.

Our house rule was the thing thatwas in conflict in this situation it seems. our house rule states:
"Players are required to act in turn.  Any player who acts out of turn will be frozen and held to their action."

Essentially what we are stating is that chips put into the pot will not be returned under any circumstances.
As I recall the ruling by the floor person was that the out of turn raiser could take back 1 dollar or re-raise.

Nick C:
 I see nothing wrong with backing up the action to the proper bettor. Which is what your dealer did. The problem that usually develops is when other players follow the out of turn action. I like the part about giving him back his dollar but, I don't like giving him a raise option. He was the offending player, his out of turn action needs to be addressed.
 I do like the way Spencer's rule is worded:
  "Any player who acts out of turn will be frozen and held to their action."  I emphasize the word "will" as in; WILL be frozen and held to their action, as opposed to may be frozen...or might be frozen (too vague).
 Mike, I was looking over your response and I noticed that you said "Seat 4 made a verbal declaration out of turn to raise the action." I saw no indication of a verbal but, that does offer a new twist....at least I think it does. I have seen rules that make a verbal declaration of raise binding in that exact situation, yet allowing a player to retract his bet if he just pushes it forward without saying anything.

Brian Vickers:

--- Quote from: MikeB on March 23, 2011, 10:19:02 PM ---Hi Spencer:

Roberts Rules, Section 3 (General), Betting & Raising, rule 11 addresses this pretty well for cash games:

"11: Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. A player who has called out of turn may not change his wager to a raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn is binding unless the action to that player is subsequently changed by a bet or raise. If there is an intervening call, an action may be ruled binding."

In your example, Seat 4 made a verbal declaration out of turn to raise the action. At the time of 4's declare it was only 2 units to him.
Now, per Rule 11 above, if the action is sugsequently changed by a bet or raise, his declare is not binding. That's exactly what happened: the action was backed up to the rightful bettor (Seat 3) and 3 changed the action to Seat 4. 3 changed it from 2 units to 10 units. So, based on this I would rule that Seat 4 is not bound by his declaration of 11 units and can take any action he wants: call, fold, or raise.   BTW, this is similar to TDA Rule 29 for tournament play.



--- End quote ---

I am 100% in agreement with this post, I am strongly against the forcing of the out of turn better's chips to stay in the pot if the in turn better changes the action.

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